Honda CBR1000RR-R SP 2024 vs V4R 2023

cl955 said:

Lithium battery about £100, non-ducati forged wheels around £2k.

I'm not that au fait with the price differences of Base vs S, but that should cover a rear shock and maybe a fork spring/setup? And you still have those parts which will hold min 60% of their value if you can bothered to remove them.

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About 6,500 Euros (around £5,400) difference.

So just over £3K for suspension, which is probably roughly what it would cost.

So the question would be whether you are actually getting better suspension than the stuff fitted to the S for probably around the same cost (without going silly on suspension of course). Probably easier to sell the S vs the base in future?

Steven31371 said:

It’s actually a misnomer saying the HRC kit and software is the WSBK stuff…most of those teams use Motec or magneti-marrelli?….both of which are extremely complicated. The HRC stuff is SUPPOSEDLY much more ergonomic to use, more self explanatory with fairly intuitive screens to navigate…we’ll see though. It translates from Japanese in interesting ways…for example there is a screen dedicated to “anti-jerk” that’s just managing throttle sensitivity by RPM and gear to make the throttle response more or less twitchy.

Pretty cool that you can do that though BY GEAR. So you can smooth the throttle in 2nd gear for pulling out of a corner and make it more aggressive in 4 through 5 etc…and you can manage slip control by corner segment…so corner entry, mid-corner, and corner exit slip can all be managed etc.

The screenshots of it do not look like hieroglyphs like the Motec stuff.




The guy who talked me into getting the Fireblade has the settings that some of the MotoAmerica teams were using for all that stuff in the vids.

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You can alter throttle pickup by map in the ducati software. Wouldn't be by each gear but by the map groupings, 1st, 2 and 3, then 4,5,6. You can also change the EBC values by map. The stock throttle mapping on the clowncar made it really hard to pick up the throttle mid corner jerk free (a jerk is the 2nd derivative of velocity). Frustrated me until I figured out how to change it.

First, will say I do not race, however I am a slow expert w/ N2 but consider myself more towards the top when it comes to systems and setup, my true hobby at almost 50. I have had the privilege of running Duc's 1299 and V4, and have my own RR-R.

Honda:

You need a Honda HRC kit to change sprocket or tire size in the ECU, no dash function. This is insane money comparted to what I paid for an ECU and harness for my R6, and the ECU came with a factory race tune on it. Aprilia has had dash calibration functions for at least 5 years now. I have a tune from BT Moto that works, but it is no where near as predictable as the Duc's with EVO and slide control. Not even close. The tune did allow me to run the more modern 200/65 rears and a 15/43 setup, which was impossible stock. OEM sprockets were setup for over 100mph in first... Stock tune is neutered/flat above 12k, you pull, just dont make any more rwhp. Intake packed full of foam from factory and the good stacks are another cost item. Horrible mid-range dip that is supposedly fixed by a full race header and pipe with a proper tune, a bit better stock for the 25MY. The dip before the power band makes the bike feel like a 225hp two stroke over 10k, very narrow rev range to work with. If stock the power will pour on around 9.5k and stop at 12k. You have to tune it and with that goes the warranty. Forget staying in that higher gear before the big sweeper.

Bike comes setup for 200/55...

The R6 makes more torque than the RR-R down low, bonkers. You need to keep the RR-R on the boil as it is dead below 8k and doesn't really wake up until 9.5k. From 11k to 15k the RR-R is absolutely bonkers and needs at least a former pro to keep something like this on the boil while running with aggression. The back will be all over the place.

The foot peg height on the RR-R is too high, like 4" less between the seat and peg than anything else I have ridden. Even with Lightech peg drops from the EU, it is still too high for comfort. Attack doesn't make rearsets either.

Cast wheels, still light though.

You cannot buy an engine from Honda... Same with Ducati. Warranty is only a year.

The bike is very well mannered on the street. Below 5k you would think you are putting around on a touring machine, unaware of the beast that lurks inside. QS might as well be an automate tranny it is so smooth.

Duc:

Factory tune is solid and the Ducati Performance Tune is a game changer. Run a speed calibration from the dash and head out.

Better mid-range torque and it comes on more linear.

Dry clutch can be costly and time consuming to deal with, wet clutch unless racing.

On MR12, it is the only bike that will pull on the RR-R, RR-R had 93 tune in my case.

OEM exhaust is stupid money.

Manual suspension, FKR fronts, like the Honda.

My .02, buy a V4S (wet clutch) with the FKR fronts, run it in manual mode, get the Ducati Performance Tune with a Termi exhaust and run the piss out of it.

The fast guys around me all run the S1000RRs for track days, 3-year warranty and BMW will replace an engine and even sell you one after the warranty is up. Anyone I know that has popped an engine around season 3 has had a warranty replacement, even with the BT Moto tune. Bren and Motorrad have a very close relationship.

.02

cl955 said:

I agree with everything you said, but are we convinced that the super duper new electronic suspension really is a good option for a track only bike though? Even at a moderate pace?

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People run these EC2 and 3 at super a super quick pace, like 2-3ish seconds of their WSBK PB lap times. The low friction coating doesn't go all they up the tubes on the EC, the foot is cast vs machined billet and the internals are setup a bit cheaper. With use there will be some stiction on the OEM Ohlin tubes vs the track dedicated options. You need to be on the ragged edge to notice a difference. Ohlins track tubes have material removed to provide some flex when leaned over, OEM Ohlin tubes are usually symmetrical. Everyone I know runs these suspensions in manual mode and the book values are super close.

cl955 said:

I agree with everything you said, but are we convinced that the super duper new electronic suspension really is a good option for a track only bike though? Even at a moderate pace?

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A friend of mine is a very fast ex-racer who is in the MA paddock every round and still does coaching, etc. told me that he can get within 2-3 seconds of SBK times on his 2023 V4S with electronic Ohlins. That's the 2.0 version. No way the 3.0 isnt good enough for the skill levels of posters here, imo. Not saying some might not prefer standard suspension, just giving some insight to what I've been told. And his bike has the exhaust and tune, thats it.

I'd agree on the 8k usd akra nonsense. Especially in California with the non-op procedure and only official Ducati distribution. I'm super happy that with the new v2 they are heading in a different direction. But for the v4,s,r, I'd always go with a spark or whatnot instead. I don't particularly like the style of the akra on the honda btw.

Steven31371 said:

The stock ECU on the 2024 and 2025 Fireblade is significantly upgraded and can do most of what the V4S ECU can do without the $800 programming update that REQUIRES the $7500 exhuast to get. So to surpass the capabilities of the Stock Honda ECU you need to spend $8300.

It costs about $4500 to put the HRC ECU on the Honda but now you have also far surpassed the capabilities of the Ducati ECU and software even with the required $8300 spend to get the trick software on the Ducati.

So only if you spend an additional $8300 the Ducati software and ECU surpass the stock Honda ECU and Software….but then you can spend $4500 on the Honda and get real WSBK software and tuning capabilities that FAR surpass what it takes $8300 with Ducati to get.

Also the Honda comes with the latest Stylema R iteration on the front calipers and the exact same suspension as the Ducati.

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Meant to reply earlier. All my comments are about previous Honda gen as well.


I guess at this stage, it would be good to run some numbers and compare 2, say to the level of advanced track-day rider. Sure Motec/HRC ECU opens up the door for adjustments that Ducati doesn't provide, but not many really use this at trackdays.

I bet Ducati will be more expensive for sure, I'm just curious by how much, 5-7k ?

panibadboy said:

Meant to reply earlier. All my comments are about previous Honda gen as well.


I guess at this stage, it would be good to run some numbers and compare 2, say to the level of advanced track-day rider. Sure Motec/HRC ECU opens up the door for adjustments that Ducati doesn't provide, but not many really use this at trackdays.

I bet Ducati will be more expensive for sure, I'm just curious by how much, 5-7k ?

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The HRC ECU opens up lots of adjustments (not sure most people would use most if it) and provides more power but also provides some things that you get with Ducati anyway - it seems the Ducati is more flexible on gearing and tyres and you can put different tyres on the Ducati and use the standard software to calibrate. @baggerman ’s comment about throttle map was interesting.

I have a feeling the Ducati might be marginally better if you don’t want to do much to it and maybe the Honda would be a good choice if you want to go crazy without necessarily having to break the bank. You can spec the Honda extremely well and quite easily compared to the Ducati, considering also the overall expenditure. I think the Honda looks good as well. Start adding an exhaust, etc, to the Ducati and it starts to get a bit silly. It’s not lacking in power but the weight reduction is nice (that’s the primary reason I put exhausts on mine).

It would be really interesting to see a comparison on track between the stock SP and V4S. A previous comparison I saw had the stock SP against the V4R with full exhaust… I wouldn’t be surprised if you get one winner with one type of rider and a different winner with a different type of rider…

chris838 said:

I don't particularly like the style of the akra on the honda btw.

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Old school… At least it has Akrapovic on the stock bike. The full Akrapovic system for a Honda costs less (I think maybe far less) than one third of the DP price. Honda tax is far lower…

I find it funny how many Ducati forum member

cl955 said:

I agree with everything you said, but are we convinced that the super duper new electronic suspension really is a good option for a track only bike though? Even at a moderate pace?

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How do you know it isn’t?

Paul G said:

Impressive sprocket!

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I’m not a big fan of Carbon for carbon’s sake but that thing is cool, and about 8 ounces lighter than the stock sprocket and about 4 ounces lighter than

chris838 said:

I'd agree on the 8k usd akra nonsense. Especially in California with the non-op procedure and only official Ducati distribution. I'm super happy that with the new v2 they are heading in a different direction. But for the v4,s,r, I'd always go with a spark or whatnot instead. I don't particularly like the style of the akra on the honda btw.

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The problem is that Ducati won’t sell you or install the $800 software upgrade that gets you all the adjustability and the rear braking algorithms and slip algorithms etc in slicks at track without buying the $7500 exhaust from them…that was a deal breaker for me, as the whole benefit of the Ducati over its competitors is the 70 virtual sensor IMU and electronic algorithms that function with it based on all that tremendous amount of racing data they collect. You can’t use the selling point of the bike, its differentiator, without the $800 software and the $7500 exhaust. So to get what they are selling you from jump you have to add $8300 for parts and software PLUS $3.5k in labor cost to install it, plus tax on all that, plus navigate California regs.

So realistically you are looking at a $12,000 additional cost over the bike price to get what makes the 2025 V4S special in the market place.

Then add other track prep costs on top of that. Your into it by about $55k to $65k to get what Ducati is selling as special on the bike in track prepped form.

From it looks like so far I’ll only be into the Honda for about $35k TOTAL and that’s with carbon fiber wheels and all the bells and whistles that would put the Ducati at closer to $75,000.

Steven31371 said:

So realistically you are looking at a $12,000 additional cost over the bike price to get what makes the 2025 V4S special in the market place.

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Ouch. For something with capabilities that even with all the rider's aids few will ever be able to truly use. In a few years you'll be able to find one for half with less than 1000 miles, like most highend Ducati's, I suspect. We now have auto back it in. I wonder where they're going with the software next?

Steven31371 said:

The problem is that Ducati won’t sell you or install the $800 software upgrade that gets you all the adjustability and the rear braking algorithms and slip algorithms etc in slicks at track without buying the $7500 exhaust from them…that was a deal breaker for me, as the whole benefit of the Ducati over its competitors is the 70 virtual sensor IMU and electronic algorithms that function with it based on all that tremendous amount of racing data they collect. You can’t use the selling point of the bike, its differentiator, without the $800 software and the $7500 exhaust. So to get what they are selling you from jump you have to add $8300 for parts and software PLUS $3.5k in labor cost to install it, plus tax on all that, plus navigate California regs.

So realistically you are looking at a $12,000 additional cost over the bike price to get what makes the 2025 V4S special in the market place.

Then add other track prep costs on top of that. Your into it by about $55k to $65k to get what Ducati is selling as special on the bike in track prepped form.

From it looks like so far I’ll only be into the Honda for about $35k TOTAL and that’s with carbon fiber wheels and all the bells and whistles that would put the Ducati at closer to $75,000.

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I’m not sure that’s right.

You get the full electronics without the slicks software and you can still use slicks without the software. That software is just a revised DTC for slicks as far as I understand it.

I’ve seen someone say they had the software installed with the stock exhaust and I’ve also seen this stated on a supplier (non-Ducati) website for the previous model. I was told by my dealer that you had to have the tune that comes with the exhaust to get the DTC software but I don’t really know why that would be the case.

spooky said:

I’m not sure that’s right.

You get the full electronics without the slicks software and you can still use slicks without the software. That software is just a revised DTC for slicks as far as I understand it.

I’ve seen someone say they had the software installed with the stock exhaust and I’ve also seen this stated on a supplier (non-Ducati) website for the previous model. I was told by my dealer that you had to have the tune that comes with the exhaust to get the DTC software but I don’t really know why that would be the case.

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The Ducati dealership near me messaged corporate and they said point blank they are not going install the $800 software upgrade that allows everything from alt tire size calibration to updated and more sophisticated and responsive electronic Nannie’s geared toward high end track performance without the purchase of the exhaust. And they said they won’t sell it for bikes equipped with a similar after market exhaust that wasn’t purchased from Ducati.

But that’s the whole differentiator of the bike, with the combination of the 70 virtual sensor IMU, programmed with what might be the most advanced track focussed rider aid algorithms, which in turn came from data collected from dozens of race teams over many seasons you get something truest special and head of the pack of bikes.

But without that $800 software upgrade you get downgraded or less sophisticated track oriented rider aids. Which then puts you back at the level of what you got from the previous generation. It’s just not a compelling purchase point at least for me, that you can’t get the best of what makes that bike special without dropping an additional $12k or more.

Sure can can run slicks without the $800 EVO software, but the literature says that you only get the new REFINED algorithms for slicks WITH the $800 software. Those refinements supported by the 70 virtual sensor array is the entire reason to buy this bike, and at least in the US you can’t get that upgraded software without the exhaust and the install cost.

In some ways, it’s like a first adopter of a new technology tax. Buying one used a year and a half from now would probably be a great idea though lol

Steven31371 said:

But without that $800 software upgrade you get downgraded or less sophisticated track oriented rider aids. Which then puts you back at the level of what you got from the previous generation.

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I am not sure what specific differences it makes but I had thought it was simply adjusted DTC algorithms for slicks - a refinement rather than something radically different.

You seem to be saying that the stock electronics on the 2025 are at the same level as the previous generation and you only get any real benefits with the slicks software. That doesn’t sound right to me.

Tire calibration is on the standard software, or at least it is on my SP2 – low exit Akrapovic but no DTC software.

When I first looked at the configurator I noted that the slicks software couldn’t be purchased even with the ‘race’ exhaust - only with the full exhaust - and thought that wasn’t particularly great.

Whatever happened to skill: you know the right wrist, eyeballs, brains ands seat time that get you to the point where you can actually appreciate and use the upgrades? Seriously unless you are at the bleeding edge, front of A group or racing, 99% of what has been posted here is irrelevant to a street or even a trackday rider. If you are not in any those groups then you are probably a fully paid up member of "gearfreaks" which has members from every sport and hobby known to man, the motto is "all the gear and no idea"

I have seen with my own eyes guys on older Japanese i4's absolutely smash gearfreaks who have the latest and greatest Duc with the best of everything upgrades because they know their limits and they can ride..

I do not expect any software changes in 2025 or beyond to alter this fact

I think Ducati have done a spectacular job on the 2025, and if the only gripe is an overpriced exhaust and race software then meh...

Paul G said:

I have seen with my own eyes guys on older Japanese i4's absolutely smash gearfreaks who have the latest and greatest Duc with the best of everything upgrades because they know their limits and they can ride..

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Does it matter?

I don’t really get the point of posts like this.

I agree with your last sentence though - looks like an awesome bike.

spooky said:

I am not sure what specific differences it makes but I had thought it was simply adjusted DTC algorithms for slicks - a refinement rather than something radically different.

You seem to be saying that the stock electronics on the 2025 are at the same level as the previous generation and you only get any real benefits with the slicks software. That doesn’t sound right to me.

Tire calibration is on the standard software, or at least it is on my SP2 – low exit Akrapovic but no DTC software.

When I first looked at the configurator I noted that the slicks software couldn’t be purchased even with the ‘race’ exhaust - only with the full exhaust - and thought that wasn’t particularly great.

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It is a refinement, but that refinement and the bits that lead to it, at least for me, was the entire selling point of upgrading to the newer bike.

The swingarm and chassis and the stuff they did there other manufacturers are well ahead them and have been doing that stuff for years.

Steven31371 said:

It is a refinement, but that refinement and the bits that lead to it, at least for me, was the entire selling point of upgrading to the newer bike.

The swingarm and chassis and the stuff they did there other manufacturers are well ahead them and have been doing that stuff for years.

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I get where you are coming from, but I only view that software as an optimisation for slicks. Perhaps it’s more than that but I don’t recall seeing anything particularly detailed online about it.

I don’t think not having it detracts from the key features introduced with the new bike and I certainly don’t see how not having that software means that it’s no better than the previous generation in terms of electronics.

I do agree that there’s something off about being forced to buy an extremely overpriced exhaust to be able to get it though.