Kramer 890

A little off topic

But we have to give this forum some life

what is the price of new Kramer 890?

and what are your experience with it?

Given only 4 bikes were sold in the entire country in 2021 and exactly zero have made it state-side in 2022, the Kramer 890 is a unicorn. Add the odds of another V4 owner also owning the 890 Kramer, you are not going to get a lot of responses to "what are your experiences with it" question.

Jaaa

sorry, thought I had seen some pictures of them on last posts

i guess if only 4 were sold,

then they must not very popular

or they are crazy expensive like the new KTM RC8

40k for a small bike is a bit much for my taste

RODOLFO said:

i guess if only 4 were sold,

then they must not very popular

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Either that, or they are very exclusive and hand made in ultra-small numbers.

RODOLFO said:

or they are crazy expensive like the new KTM RC8

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A bike is worth what a buyer is willing to pay, so 'expensive' is a relative term. What's expensive to you or me may be pocket change to someone else.

You can buy a $28k Ducati V4, put $12k in parts and about 60-80 hours of your time into it to race prep and you are now up to $40k and it still mostly handles like a piece of .... and you are discussing rear pumping and lock stops breaking and quick shifter sensors giving out on a daily basis.

Or you can spend $33k on a Kramer, have it delivered on a Wednesday night, call in sick Thursday and go out and set a PB at your local track. Kramers are the ultimate definition of ready to race.

RODOLFO said:

40k for a small bike is a bit much for my taste

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Ok sure. Me, I could care less about cubic capacity. All I care about is lap times. I am 4.5 seconds faster on the GP2 compared to the V4 on my first day out on it at my local 1.7 mile circuit. So I think the 890 is an absolute bargain, given time is my main constraint and not $$.

Now if you are a track noobie or just want to do trackdays for fun but starbucks is your real scene, then none of this comparison means anything. Ducati is the way to go.

Thanks for the info

Being a track bike, lap time is the main thing.

but the questioning is,because I don’t want to get swallowed by 600cc bikes

i know, I know, it all depends on the track

Is the Kramer faster than a 600 in a straight line?

i know it will be faster on the corners, just want to get a reference of how much power it has



I think it will be a great trackbike

Kramers are considered to be a Lightweight killer in the race classes.

not intended to compete with 600s

Phl said:

Kramers are considered to be a Lightweight killer in the race classes.

not intended to compete with 600s

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no intention to compete with 600 bikes

just want to know if they have 600cc power on an ultralight package?

Or if it is a light weight bike with less power than an R6 ?

RODOLFO said:

no intention to compete with 600 bikes

just want to know if they have 600cc power on an ultralight package?

Or if it is a light weight bike with less power than an R6 ?

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The GP2 (890) Kramer makes 130 hp and weighs 320 lbs wet (with carbon wheels). An R6 makes 130 hp and weighs 420 lbs wet. Same power and 100 lbs less, better brakes, suspension and chassis - it will humiliate an R6.

The Evo2 (690) Kramer makes 80 hp and weighs 260 wet (with carbon wheels). I have never had trouble taking R6s on the brakes and then keeping them behind me at most track other than COTA. I usually outbrake motards and brake at the 1 board or later so its not just R6s, but even liter bikes that you can take on the brakes. If its a small enough circuit (around me, that means everywhere except COTA), and you take them hard on the brakes on the inside a couple of times, it spooks them and they stay behind you the rest of the session. I love putting the "gun it on the straights, park it in the corners" big bike guys in their place

TomFoolery said:

The GP2 (890) Kramer makes 130 hp and weighs 320 lbs wet (with carbon wheels). An R6 makes 130 hp and weighs 420 lbs wet. Same power and 100 lbs less, better brakes, suspension and chassis - it will humiliate an R6.

The Evo2 (690) Kramer makes 80 hp and weighs 260 wet (with carbon wheels). I have never had trouble taking R6s on the brakes and then keeping them behind me at most track other than COTA. I usually outbrake motards and brake at the 1 board or later so its not just R6s, but even liter bikes that you can take on the brakes. If its a small enough circuit (around me, that means everywhere except COTA), and you take them hard on the brakes on the inside a couple of times, it spooks them and they stay behind you the rest of the session. I love putting the "gun it on the straights, park it in the corners" big bike guys in their place

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thanks man

that was the info I was looking for

gona look into one of that 890s

Rode the 890 and the V4 today back to back.

TomFoolery said:

You can buy a $28k Ducati V4, put $12k in parts and about 60-80 hours of your time into it to race prep and you are now up to $40k and it still mostly handles like a piece of .... and you are discussing rear pumping and lock stops breaking and quick shifter sensors giving out on a daily basis.

Or you can spend $33k on a Kramer, have it delivered on a Wednesday night, call in sick Thursday and go out and set a PB at your local track. Kramers are the ultimate definition of ready to race.

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Nice stable you ve got there! No doubt the Kramer is better as you say, but you have to give the V4 a few more positives since this is a Duke forum Its not an out of the box track weapon like the Kramer. The comparison would be fairer against something like a V4 version of Pierobon X85r, or even more realistically a Graves R6.

Paul G said:

Nice stable you ve got there! No doubt the Kramer is better as you say, but you have to give the V4 a few more positives since this is a Duke forum Its not an out of the box track weapon like the Kramer. The comparison would be fairer against something like a V4 version of Pierobon X85r, or even more realistically a Graves R6.

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haha I hear you. After all the work I put into the setup, the V4 does handle very well now. And looks gorgeous, if I say so myself. Can't argue with a fast bike that looks great, even if it took moving heaven and earth to get there.

Not familiar with Graves R6. What's the wet weight though? Can't imagine Graves got a 100 lbs off an R6 (street R6s are 420ish wet). Graves R6 costs almost as much as a Kramer GP2 ($29k per this link) which would make it completely and utterly pointless as it is still significantly heavier and slower. Is that a POS tockiko caliper and stock cast wheels I spy in that photo? I just can't get over having to pay serious money for a bike and still dealing with .... components.

How much does a pierobon x85r cost??

Never ridden the Graves but by all accounts its an extremely fast track motorcycle, don't know the weight but its wont be anywhere near the Kramer.
The Pierobon is right up there, used to have the price list but its Superleggera plus numbers, as for .... components have to agree, Italian bikes seem to have always been that like that with the performance, concept and style just beautiful, but the add ons like switches, sensors etc meh, who cares!

TomFoolery said:

Rode the 890 and the V4 today back to back.

View attachment 41742

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And?

what’s your impressions of both bikes when riding them back to back?


as a side note, one of the ways I use to judge toys in my stable was regardless of price, brand opinion, list of mods/parts, side by side comparison of specs….regardless of all that, when I go out to my garage, which one do I find myself grabbing the keys to and just going with most often.

after riding them back to back, which one were you most hungry about getting back on?

Steven31371 said:

And?

what’s your impressions of both bikes when riding them back to back?


as a side note, one of the ways I use to judge toys in my stable was regardless of price, brand opinion, list of mods/parts, side by side comparison of specs….regardless of all that, when I go out to my garage, which one do I find myself grabbing the keys to and just going with most often.

after riding them back to back, which one were you most hungry about getting back on?

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That is easy. The GP2. But I am having second thoughts about getting rid of the V4........

When I'm riding the Kramer, it makes me feel in control and powerful.

1. It's the fastest all-around, most approachable and most forgiving bike I have ever ridden and most people south of $exotic will ever get to ride.
2. There is no substitute to making a race machine light on its feet and it pays back in all the ways - acceleration, turning, braking, forgiving you when you ham fist the throttle, forgiving a lack of 100% fitness. "Simply, then add lightness" (colin chapman) is the ultimate pursuit and that is why light weighting something is the most expensive engineering challenge.
3. It is also immensely satisfying to dominate anyone and everyone on the brakes and simply be unafraid to stay wide open throttle.
4. I am a sucker for the rare and exotic. The vehicles that bring me the most joy are those that are unique, rare and have enough of a legend about them that people have heard of them but rarely seen. That always draws me to obscure, boutique brands and Kramer fits that perfectly.

When I'm riding the V4, I have an unshakeable sense of respect/fear deep down in the back of my head that one wrong move and the bike is going to really hurt me. I am convinced that there will be no "gentle low sides" with this bike. When it lets go, it's going to spit me off, then roll across the tarmac taking out 3 riders as it goes, then flip over a dozen times and eventually land on the handlebar and explode in flames, shutting down the track for 2 hours and making everyone in the pits hate you. You gotta be on your game when you are riding this sucker, including that last 5%!

1. FASTEST on the gas bike I have ever ridden, and most brutal. This motor is a bucket list motor, way too powerful in the hands of amateur knuckle heads like us and the challenge has always been to tame the beast with the chassis/electronics/setup. If I had to list only one reason to own this bike, it would be the motor.
2. V4 is the opposite of forgiving. If I haven't ridden in a month or riding a brand-new track, I wouldn't just go swing a leg around the V4. I would warm up for a day or two on some other bike (one of the Kramers), learn the layout well and then ride the V4. The V4 is hard work and quite slow when I am not at my best physical shape and/or haven't had a lot of seat time on that specific track.
3. Even on the best of days, the handling is a bit wild and hooligany and I have not been able to dial out the last 10% of the bad traits, I have more or less just learned to roll with it.
4. However, once you go through the hard yards of getting it setup, learn how to ride it, on your game and in good physical shape, I am faster on it by a decent margin than any other liter bike I have owned (RSV4, R1, S1000RR)
5. It is gorgeous. The Italians have always had it to make a bike that talks to you just standing there and wants you to forgive all its downsides. The Kramer is not really an elegant bike, it is more techno-brutal loooking, but the Ducati is just beautiful.

At least in my circles (hardcore track only guys) the Kramers are always the crowd pullers. I can park whatever else next to them and everyone still wants to take pictures of, and ask about the Kramers. "ohhh I have heard about this bike never seen one...."

TomFoolery said:

That is easy. The GP2. But I am having second thoughts about getting rid of the V4........

When I'm riding the Kramer, it makes me feel in control and powerful.

1. It's the fastest all-around, most approachable and most forgiving bike I have ever ridden and most people south of $exotic will ever get to ride.
2. There is no substitute to making a race machine light on its feet and it pays back in all the ways - acceleration, turning, braking, forgiving you when you ham fist the throttle, forgiving a lack of 100% fitness. "Simply, then add lightness" (colin chapman) is the ultimate pursuit and that is why light weighting something is the most expensive engineering challenge.
3. It is also immensely satisfying to dominate anyone and everyone on the brakes and simply be unafraid to stay wide open throttle.
4. I am a sucker for the rare and exotic. The vehicles that bring me the most joy are those that are unique, rare and have enough of a legend about them that people have heard of them but rarely seen. That always draws me to obscure, boutique brands and Kramer fits that perfectly.

When I'm riding the V4, I have an unshakeable sense of respect/fear deep down in the back of my head that one wrong move and the bike is going to really hurt me. I am convinced that there will be no "gentle low sides" with this bike. When it lets go, it's going to spit me off, then roll across the tarmac taking out 3 riders as it goes, then flip over a dozen times and eventually land on the handlebar and explode in flames, shutting down the track for 2 hours and making everyone in the pits hate you. You gotta be on your game when you are riding this sucker, including that last 5%!

1. FASTEST on the gas bike I have ever ridden, and most brutal. This motor is a bucket list motor, way too powerful in the hands of amateur knuckle heads like us and the challenge has always been to tame the beast with the chassis/electronics/setup. If I had to list only one reason to own this bike, it would be the motor.
2. V4 is the opposite of forgiving. If I haven't ridden in a month or riding a brand-new track, I wouldn't just go swing a leg around the V4. I would warm up for a day or two on some other bike (one of the Kramers), learn the layout well and then ride the V4. The V4 is hard work and quite slow when I am not at my best physical shape and/or haven't had a lot of seat time on that specific track.
3. Even on the best of days, the handling is a bit wild and hooligany and I have not been able to dial out the last 10% of the bad traits, I have more or less just learned to roll with it.
4. However, once you go through the hard yards of getting it setup, learn how to ride it, on your game and in good physical shape, I am faster on it by a decent margin than any other liter bike I have owned (RSV4, R1, S1000RR)
5. It is gorgeous. The Italians have always had it to make a bike that talks to you just standing there and wants you to forgive all its downsides. The Kramer is not really an elegant bike, it is more techno-brutal loooking, but the Ducati is just beautiful.

At least in my circles (hardcore track only guys) the Kramers are always the crowd pullers. I can park whatever else next to them and everyone still wants to take pictures of, and ask about the Kramers. "ohhh I have heard about this bike never seen one...."

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I’m yeah, so here’s what I’m going to need from you haha

keep your place in line, tell Kramer you gained weight and now weigh 240 pounds so they spec it to you “new weight” haha

and when your bike comes pad the price by a few K to compensate your bother….and hook a brotha up lol

Paul G said:

out of the box track weapon like the Kramer.

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how does it compare to a...let's say panigale, in the workshop?
me and ktm (rc390) had first contact now, that was a little bumpy i would say, while just changing the airbox.
i would like to hear that it is a charm to work on.

chris16 said:

how does it compare to a...let's say panigale, in the workshop?
me and ktm (rc390) had first contact now, that was a little bumpy i would say, while just changing the airbox.
i would like to hear that it is a charm to work on.

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Haven't had the GP2 (890) for very long, so can't say for certain just yet how easy they are to work on. In general, Kramers are barebones race bikes so there are no extra parts and no evap/cat etc. to fight like a street bike. 90% of parts are off the shelf KTM.

Speaking of the EVO2 (690), it's very straightforward to work on. KTM 690 motor and final drive so all engine parts, oil filter, air filter, sprockets, wheels, crash protection, brake calipers, rotors, clipons, master etc. are off the shelf. The airbox comes off with just 2 screws and top of motor is easily accessible along with most of the wiring harness. I replaced the fuel filter last season as preventative and it's a standard KTM 1290 fuel filter. The only proprietary parts (other than frame, swingarm and gas tank) are ECU, rearsets and bodywork. The rearset parts are designed to be inter-operable left to right, so I stock one set in the trailer for crash repairs along with frame and gas tank sliders. There is no silencer for the exhaust to worry about.

The GP2 seems to be a bit more bespoke than the EVO2. Rear wheel & quick shifter sensor are proprietary, as are ECU and config file for the AIM dash. But it's an 890 KTM motor so crash protection is off the shelf as are brake rotors, clipons, brake master, oil filters etc. Standard issue Brembo stylemas.

Working on the GP2 and thought some of you may appreciate the engineering detail. Everything is designed with purpose for racers by racers and there is real design elegance in play. Some examples:

1. Front and rear axle nuts are same size so you don't have to fish around for different sockets.
2. Rear wheel rides on runners inside the swingarm so when you pull the axle the wheel stays in the swingarm till you are ready to remove it.
3. Front fender is held on with two quarter turn fasterners and just pops off and front wheel comes out the front without having to take the calipers off.
4. Fuel filter (off the shelf KTM 1290 filter BTW) has a quick drain attachment to drain the fuel after each race/trackday.
5. Entire fuel tank and rear subframe assembly including tail fairing and seat is 12.4 lbs. Staggering. And that is the bigger GP2 tank, the Evo2 tank with slightly lower fuel capacity is closer to 10 lbs.
6. They ensure new advancements are designed in a way they can be retrofitted onto older bikes. Most parts are interchangeable between the Evo2 and GP2 models including tank/subframe.

Takes a full 7 minutes to strip down to motor from starting with a fully clothed bike. Such a pleasure to be around, ride and work on these bikes. Real engineering beauty.