Quirks and Brand Appeal

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TWR

Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
76
Location
California
Good Day All,

You know there are little issues we have all run into with our bikes. As myself and others have mentioned it is just the nature of the beast. Stalling issues, over heating issues, paint issues etc. etc... the list just keeps going and going of little minor issues and maybe some major here and there.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this a good thing a bad thing as far as the brand is considered? Is this something you like or dislike? Does it make ownership of bikes like ours that much more personal? What are your thoughts?

You know this is a marketing strategy to some, they label it as "having character."
 
TWR said:
Good Day All,

You know there are little issues we have all run into with our bikes. As myself and others have mentioned it is just the nature of the beast. Stalling issues, over heating issues, paint issues etc. etc... the list just keeps going and going of little minor issues and maybe some major here and there.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this a good thing a bad thing as far as the brand is considered? Is this something you like or dislike? Does it make ownership of bikes like ours that much more personal? What are your thoughts?

You know this is a marketing strategy to some, they label it as "having character."
Click to expand...


This is really the $64000 question....
 
I take it as a given that exotic bikes (or anything for that matter) will have more little issues than a widely used bike. I also take it as a given that a new generation will have more issues than a bike on say its 5th year of production. Taking those in consideration, this bike has beat my expectations ('12 Tri) for having actually very few issues, relatively. As long as the quirk doesn't cause an accident or some catastrophic failure, have me putting my bike in the shop TOO much, I don't have a real problem. I do not, however, find these quirks to add “character” to the bike. I find it an acceptable price to pay for my desire to have an exotic bike. I think the bikes are more enjoyable to ride, and I (and I’m guessing many here) am not the type of person who enjoys having what everybody else has. That being said, it has stuck in my craw a bit to have to spend significant amounts of money to have the bike geared and sprung the way I think it should have been in the first place (and still have not done out of bitterness).
 
if I wanted the best bike I would have bought a S1000rr, I reckon this also as the owner of an very difficult to ride 749. I haven't rode mine much but I can say that it feels like my first ride on a girl in my mates bed with my boots still on, couldn't take the smile off my face for a couple of days and I'm smiling right now bout the Panigale, her and the mess I made in his bed!
 
These things are Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll on 2 wheels, of course there will be a tab to pick up, it goes with the territory.
 
Denver Rick said:
I take it as a given that exotic bikes (or anything for that matter) will have more little issues than a widely used bike. I also take it as a given that a new generation will have more issues than a bike on say its 5th year of production. Taking those in consideration, this bike has beat my expectations ('12 Tri) for having actually very few issues, relatively. As long as the quirk doesn't cause an accident or some catastrophic failure, have me putting my bike in the shop TOO much, I don't have a real problem. I do not, however, find these quirks to add "character" to the bike. I find it an acceptable price to pay for my desire to have an exotic bike. I think the bikes are more enjoyable to ride, and I (and I'm guessing many here) am not the type of person who enjoys having what everybody else has. That being said, it has stuck in my craw a bit to have to spend significant amounts of money to have the bike geared and sprung the way I think it should have been in the first place (and still have not done out of bitterness).
Click to expand...


I mostly agree with this, except for the gearing and springing issue.
These are both variables which are required to be done to optimize the bike for you and your particular application.

You Sir, are a harder man than I think I'll ever be:(

On gearing the bike came with the gearing required to enable it to pass various Government regulations/legalities and for registration purposes (all over the world).
It was by all means and definitions a compromise out of necessity.
It's not like they didn't offer an alternative gearing solution at a reduced price for the change over, to anyone who didn't like the standard setup.
There are people who are convinced that the 41 tooth sprocket is too big, and have opted to go with a 40 tooth.

I put it to you. How should it have been configured from factory to pass the Government rules and regulations (ADR) here in OZ so it could be imported into the country?
For that matter how should the gearing have been for my personal riding style/purposes?
I'll give you a hint;)
Bog stock factory is just fine for me:)
IMO it works perfectly.

On the issue of springing.
What is your setup?
Are you saying that your particular setup, is the way it should've come from the factory for everybody?
I can guarantee you that there are a number of different set ups that could apply to individual requirements. It all depends upon the weight of the rider and whether you have a pillion or not.
So they picked a setup that would get people out there and riding straight off the showroom floor.
It's a compromise. It always is and will always be.
These bikes by nature have to be set up specifically for the individual operator in order to optimise the things.
There's no getting around it what so ever.
We've just got to suck it up and get on with it.

If you don't want to be bothered setting up a bike then go and get yourself a scooter and ride the tits off it.
Or you could go with a CB 250 or something.

For gods sake.
It's not like they didn't engineer a clever and unique solution for the suspension geometry on the rear end.
Who else in the world offers the option of having a flat or progressive linkage all rolled into one?
On the 1098/1198, it came from factory with a progressive linkage (only).
If you wanted to set the bike up for track duty, then you had to buy the DP flat suspension linkage as an accessory. Then change it all over onto the bike and refit the shock.
There were no options, It was one or the other.
And you paid a good chunk extra for the privilege of having a flat linkage;)

To top it all off the 1199 S was the same price as the outgoing 1198 SP.
In terms of value for money I know which side my breads buttered on:)
 
farmind said:
if I wanted the best bike I would have bought a S1000rr, I reckon this also as the owner of an very difficult to ride 749. I haven't rode mine much but I can say that it feels like my first ride on a girl in my mates bed with my boots still on, couldn't take the smile off my face for a couple of days and I'm smiling right now bout the Panigale, her and the mess I made in his bed!
Click to expand...

You randy Poms;)
 
Farmind, I agree the sensation you get. However, me personally could do without the inconvenience of little issues. Having to take the bike in worried something is wrong stresses me out and not having to do so would make my personal experience with the bike that much better.

My friend has a 2006 BMW M3, which has had the roof liner peel off, his dashboard lights completely go off, hid headlights go completely off and a couple more things I cannot remember. Despite all these shortcomings he refuses to part with the car, just because of the sensation he gets from driving it.
 
Brad said:
I mostly agree with this, except for the gearing and springing issue.
These are both variables which are required to be done to optimize the bike for you and your particular application.

You Sir, are a harder man than I think I'll ever be:(

On gearing the bike came with the gearing required to enable it to pass various Government regulations/legalities and for registration purposes (all over the world).
It was by all means and definitions a compromise out of necessity.
It's not like they didn't offer an alternative gearing solution at a reduced price for the change over, to anyone who didn't like the standard setup.
There are people who are convinced that the 41 tooth sprocket is too big, and have opted to go with a 40 tooth.

I put it to you. How should it have been configured from factory to pass the Government rules and regulations (ADR) here in OZ so it could be imported into the country?
For that matter how should the gearing have been for my personal riding style/purposes?
I'll give you a hint;)
Bog stock factory is just fine for me:)
IMO it works perfectly.

On the issue of springing.
What is your setup?
Are you saying that your particular setup, is the way it should've come from the factory for everybody?
I can guarantee you that there are a number of different set ups that could apply to individual requirements. It all depends upon the weight of the rider and whether you have a pillion or not.
So they picked a setup that would get people out there and riding straight off the showroom floor.
It's a compromise. It always is and will always be.
These bikes by nature have to be set up specifically for the individual operator in order to optimise the things.
There's no getting around it what so ever.
We've just got to suck it up and get on with it.

If you don't want to be bothered setting up a bike then go and get yourself a scooter and ride the tits off it.
Or you could go with a CB 250 or something.

For gods sake.
It's not like they didn't engineer a clever and unique solution for the suspension geometry on the rear end.
Who else in the world offers the option of having a flat or progressive linkage all rolled into one?
On the 1098/1198, it came from factory with a progressive linkage (only).
If you wanted to set the bike up for track duty, then you had to buy the DP flat suspension linkage as an accessory. Then change it all over onto the bike and refit the shock.
There were no options, It was one or the other.
And you paid a good chunk extra for the privilege of having a flat linkage;)

To top it all off the 1199 S was the same price as the outgoing 1198 SP.
In terms of value for money I know which side my breads buttered on:)
Click to expand...

One, it is clear Ducati has recognized the gearing issue, and I believe the R now comes with the new gearing. Two, it is sprung for a 200lb person. I don't know any racers or really ANY Italian riders that are 200lbs, nor do I know of any other bikes sprung stock for this weight of rider. This is likely due to selling to the US market and they think we're all fat. Unfortunately that belief is getting truer and truer. Three, I of course understand setting a bike up (thank you master of the obvious), but I also understand they have to pick a mark for stock, and I believe they picked wrong in this circumstance. Four, obviously these are not huge complaints as I still have an love the bike, so lighten up Francis. And five, I have a scooter and love it, so suck it. ;)
 
I don't mind and I think it's simply part of the ownership "adventure" and does add to the character of the bike.

If everything always went perfect, that would get pretty damn boring :cool:

Sure it can be inconvenient, but so can getting pulled over by police in a foreign country just so they can hold you and wait for a bribe to let you pass. Doesn't mean you're going to stop traveling!

Bottom line is the good blows the bad out of thought and mind when I'm blasting around turns at 9K RPM...
 
I don't ride an 1199. But this applies to almost anything people purchase. First I'd say "define quirk". Because a lot of what people call a quirk is willful ignorance of a flaw. Good example, the CBR1000RR oil consumption issues. Heard one guy say "so what if she wants to drink a little more than she should?".

The only thing I've encountered on the s1000rr I'd classify a "quirk" is the front brake squeal when going from low speed to 0 (15 mph - 0). I accepted it, refusing to go thru a big deal to eliminate it and simply transition to the rear brake when coming to a full stop.

But I do NOT call the combo switch failures a "quirk". It's a flaw. Not enough to tarnish the bike so long as BMW continues to replace the switches and continues to search for a good supplier. The false neutral issue falls between "quirk" and flaw. I've only had it when being lazy with my shifting. Shifted assertively, I've never had it in any rpm range.

So for me I'd define a quirk as something that causes ZERO damage and does not affect the functionality of the bike in ANY way. But I'll call a flaw what it is: something that should not be. It doesn't add character. It does the opposite, detracting from the overall appeal of ownership. Regardless of how minute, it doesn't add to the bike. With the combo switch failures it means an 80 mile boring ride to the dealer for replacement. Done it once and will have it done again during this year's annual service.

Accepting a flaw as "character" gives the impression you're somehow privileged to ride the bike, that Honda / BMW / Ducati / etc is allowing you the honor of riding their bike. You're not privileged. Anybody with the cash can be just like you. And it gives the manufacturer the wrong idea and inflates their ego.

They're the ones that should feel privileged and honored we gave them our money.
 
Denver Rick said:
One, it is clear Ducati has recognized the gearing issue, and I believe the R now comes with the new gearing.
Click to expand...

It should be pointed out that this isn't clear. The "R" does ship with different gearing. No surprise given that it has different engine characteristics (most obviously being a higher rev limit).
But the "R" was being shipped with 41t while the other models were (and still are to my knowledge) being shipped with the 39t.
Unless you can point to a base and/or "S" now coming standard with 41t, then I'd say that Ducati hasn't recognized an issue and it's not clear that there is one.

I've changed my '12 to a quick-change 41t rear and I like the characteristics - particularly for the roads I favor to ride it on (very tight/twisty stuff in N.GA.) But those aren't the only types of roads around and I would suspect others with roads in their area with different characteristics may have a different view as to what the perfect setup would be.

As far as spring rates, in the past Ducati has been criticized for using 160 lb skinny italian guys as test pilots/targets. My 748 (in '97) was badly undersprung when delivered (i'm at 195 w/o gear). They're never going to hit everyone right. But I think current spring rates as delivered (at least on my Pani) is probably closer to the median than they've hit in the past.
I'd much rather have a suspension with a too-stiff spring delivered than one that's too undersprung. I can cope with it being a little stiff. But nothing handles worse than a bike that is badly undersprung and wallowing in every corner.
 
Unfortunately, the springing is about right for me.

I test road a base and felt that the forks king of wallowed and I didn't like the feeling while the rear felt maybe over sprung. I bought a Tri and the Ohlin's seem close. Nothing like the feeling of the base. I think the biggest difference is in the dampening along with the feeling that the front is in better balance with the rear. Personally, I think the front may be on the light side, however I need to get more miles on it before I look at changing the front springs.
 
Last edited:
Denver Rick said:
I have a scooter and love it, so suck it. ;)
Click to expand...

So what's your problem then:confused:
Go and ride the tits off it and have some fun:)

Ok, so you got 1 machine out of the 2 of them that didn't require setting up.
1 out of 2 isn't that bad;)
It could've been worse.
You could've bought a BMW S 1000 RR instead:eek:

Sounds like a first world problem to me:D
 
Charliem90 said:
It should be pointed out that this isn't clear. The "R" does ship with different gearing. No surprise given that it has different engine characteristics (most obviously being a higher rev limit).
But the "R" was being shipped with 41t while the other models were (and still are to my knowledge) being shipped with the 39t.
Unless you can point to a base and/or "S" now coming standard with 41t, then I'd say that Ducati hasn't recognized an issue and it's not clear that there is one.

I've changed my '12 to a quick-change 41t rear and I like the characteristics - particularly for the roads I favor to ride it on (very tight/twisty stuff in N.GA.) But those aren't the only types of roads around and I would suspect others with roads in their area with different characteristics may have a different view as to what the perfect setup would be.

As far as spring rates, in the past Ducati has been criticized for using 160 lb skinny italian guys as test pilots/targets. My 748 (in '97) was badly undersprung when delivered (i'm at 195 w/o gear). They're never going to hit everyone right. But I think current spring rates as delivered (at least on my Pani) is probably closer to the median than they've hit in the past.
I'd much rather have a suspension with a too-stiff spring delivered than one that's too undersprung. I can cope with it being a little stiff. But nothing handles worse than a bike that is badly undersprung and wallowing in every corner.
Click to expand...

Right on:)

It's clear that DUCATI are getting better with every new model that comes out.
I think if one can find a genuine serious fault with any of these new bikes regardless of make or model.
It Reflects more on the purchaser in a negative way, than any thing else:(

Firstly, because they chose poorly.
And or secondly, they're just way too picky.
These things are of course, subject to the proper functionality of the components that go to make up the whole of the machine.

Otherwise, it's still a first world problem:D
 
When i bought my 13 s1000rr it needed a new stator after the first 30 miles. My exhaust and rear tire was covered in oil. Trading it in for a base 1199 next Saturday.
 

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