***Spoiler Alert*** MotoGP Argentina 2015 - 3rd race of the season

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Marc Marquez:
"It's a shame what happened, because we were having a good race! It was interesting, because our tyre choice was different from Valentino's as I felt we were not as competitive the harder compound. The strategy was working out well for us - it's just a pity about the last two laps. When I saw that he was closing in on me, I decided to conserve the tyres a little. On the final laps I went back to riding in the low 1'39s to check that the tyres were still in good shape, and knew that we would be fighting to the end. When he caught me, we fought for a few corners and unfortunately we touched and I crashed. I've always said that he's my idol and my reference, so you always learn things from him. Now we have to think about Jerez and begin to recover points."
 
^this! Both VR and MM had the same response, that it was a shame because they could have finished up with a great scrap (that both would have enjoyed immensely). Both true racers; Rossi didn't gripe about Marquez whacking him up the inside on the preceding right hander, and Marquez didn't whine when Rossi's flick to the left caught him out at the next left.

To borrow an old quote from Bob Hannah, "we didn't come here to play tiddlywinks!"... ;)
 
Great race, as a MM fan, all I can say is his bold outside move didn't pan out, too bad, but Vale had him, MM was a sitting duck with his poor tyre choice. As a VR fan all I can say is BRAVO, he is going to be the man to beat this year, he has seen it all, done it all, still enjoys the hell out of racing, he's healthy and has a fast bike.
 
First off, as I stated "IMHO"

As the Chicago Tribune famously said, "It appears that everybody has a right to express their opinion, but not everybody has a right to their opinion."

If you don't like opinion, that's fine work me. You Rossi Bots defend him no matter what he does.

Turning to insults because your theory is getting picked apart logically is a rather immature tactic.

Funny, if the situation was completely reversed and Rossi went down, all the Rossi Bots would be screaming! The difference with me is, I will defend anyone even if I don't like them.

Common sense dictates that you cannot use an assumption of your own creation to support your argument. I am a Rossi fan, I know he is guilty of riding very aggressively in the past, and if the roles were reversed I would be pissed at him for taking himself out of contention, similar to how I was pissed last year when he wrecked like a goofball.

Just because I like or dislike somebody has no bearing on looking at the situation logically and drawing an analytical conclusion.

Your assumption that others must be defending their idol actually speaks higher of your intentions than your proclamation about being unbiased. We are blinded by our own paradigm.


Personally, I don't like Rossi, I think he is a big clown. He is a great rider no doubt about it, but not the GOAT he thinks he is.

Not to nitpick, but you stated this as fact, when it is clearly an opinion. I would say that your bias is quite evident in the very thin straws you are dancing on to make your point.

If GOAT stands for Goofiest Of All Time, then he earns that title.

Again, your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Rossi is a great rider, but super dirty too.

Can you provide any evidence or list any events in say, the last 7 years, that would lend you to believe that he is still as aggressive as he was one when he was a 22-year old kid? Could it be that time and experience have tempered his aggressiveness, while his talent has allowed him to evolve with the machine?

Marc is certainly talented, but he is very very aggressive, perhaps more so than Rossi ever was. However age and experience will temper him too.

If rubbing is racing, then he fits right in-like NASCAR. He is ambitious for sure and extremely media savvy. Does anyone remember how dirty Rossi was to Biaggi and Seth on and off the track!

Again do you have any examples in the last 7 years of Rossi being a dirty rider? Much like Michael Jordan returning to the NBA with a now-patented fade-away jump shot, Rossi's come back has shown him to be more humble, more calculated, and completely brilliant.

The other reason I don't like him is his claim that he a great development rider.

I think that he certainly struggled with Ducati but had great success with Yamaha before that.

He developed the Ducati into a loser! Only now is Ducati finally turning things around, because Ducati has done away with most of his input.

Your first sentence is factually incorrect and the rest of the quote has a bitter taste of emotional-based thinking. Changing history, inventing "facts" and adding your biased emotions into a statement don't make for the powerhouse evidence you assume... it really just makes your argument weaker.

I don't blame Rossi for taking Ducati's money, that's Ducati's fault for putting so much stock/investment into Rossi's and Burgess's claims that they can turn the Ducati around with simple adjustments.

Interesting, you said that he developed Ducati into a loser, but now you are suggesting that they were losing before... Why turn something that isn't broken around?

Point being, don't claim to be the best development rider/engineer/crew chief on the earth/in the sport then turn Ducati into a total loser!

It was clearly all that evil-doer Rossi's fault and its clearly his fault that Marques turned into him. Don't you see how you are applying the same emotional "logic" against the same person, yet claiming to be unbiased?


Ya I stand by what I said:
watch that video with side/view camera angle Rossi looks right over at Marques when he kicks his rearend out into the front wheel of Marques.

After reading your prior evidence against Rossi, it is quite clear to me that you believe this. However, what you believe and what is factually true are quite different. Sadly, we live in a day-and-age when discounting millions of pieces evidence and data because it disproves stories in your religious book is consider normal.

However lets look at something a little more tangible.

Racing 101, the person in the lead has the line. Rossi was still leaning to his right (although almost vertical) when Marquez began his turn to the the left.

When viewed from both the helicopter and rear camera angle, it is VERY CLEAR that Marquez starts to enter the corner first, leaning to his and Valentino's left. Again, Rossi -as the clear and defined leader- has the line and it is Marc's responsibility to follow.

The move, Rossi accelerating and running wide in order to drop deep into the apex is a clear, clean and typical blocking move. Marc should have conceded the position unless he thought he could pass on the outside.

To suggest that Rossi purposely wrecked Marquez in that manner shows, IMHO, a lack of racing knowledge and common sense. That is a very high risk maneuver where even a few millimeters of difference can change who wrecks and how. While I certainly have a higher praise of Rossi's ability than you, I don't think engineering a wreck on purpose with that level of sophistication in a fraction of a second, while turning your head over your shoulder to see if you are going to get hit again, is possible.


He has done this something to Biaggi, Seth, and many other riders for years and years. He then uses his power in the media to cover/blame the other riders

Please list the other riders or list some memorable events?


Again:
IMHO

I would keep the H capitalized.
 
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Todd H,

Wow, you just said a whole lot of nothing. You are a pretty good sophist. If you can speak that way in person, you might have a future as a politician. It sounds like I hurt your little "feelings". I am sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings or anyone else's. Send me your address and I'll send you a giant box of Kleenex.

Rossi bots always cry when their leader is criticized. Marques is not my favorite racer, not even close. Yes, I will defend anyone if I believe they are right, even if I don't personally like them.

You did not dispute anything, but keep saying all this emotional argument BS. It sounds you have a lot of time on your hands, I don't. So please feel free to look up anything you want to prove your right about everything you feel.


-I will say, Stoner handed Rossi a bike capable of winning GP's. Stoner won 3 races on his last year (2010) with Ducati. Stoner was claiming the Ducati was have front end grip problems. Many said Stoner, was really having confidence problems which manifested as sickness issues. Who knows. How many races did Rossi win on a Ducati? Duh, none!

Apparently, you watched the race from a helicopter, that's still pretty far away though. I am sure you were using binoculars though.


Lastly, I am just a roadracing fan. A Ducati 1199S and an 848 owner. I own a SV650 track bike for track days. My riding skills are nowhere near any of those pro riders and I have never claimed otherwise either.
 
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Todd H,

Wow, you just said a whole lot of nothing. You are a pretty good sophist. If you can speak that way in person, you might have a future as a politician. It sounds like I hurt your little "feelings". I am sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings or anyone else's. Send me your address and I'll send you a giant box of Kleenex.

Thanks for the compliment. You didn't hurt my feelings in the least, in fact the only emotion I had reading your post was that empathy. I generally feel embarrassed for you. If you missed the points in my post, that was by your choice and I cannot expand on them further without being insulting.

Rossi bots always cry when their leader is criticized. Marques is not my favorite racer, not even close. Yes, I will defend anyone if I believe they are right, even if I don't personally like them.

I don't care who you criticize and in what way. I don't think you nearly as unbiased as you believe.

You did not dispute anything, but keep saying all this emotional argument BS. It sounds you have a lot of time on your hands, I don't. So please feel free to look up anything you want to prove your right about everything you feel.

I clearly disputed your proclamation of being unbiased as well as your "outside reality" view of the incident.


-I will say, Stoner handed Rossi a bike capable of winning GP's. Stoner won 3 races on his last year (2010) with Ducati. Stoner was claiming the Ducati was have front end grip problems. Many said Stoner, was really having confidence problems which manifested as sickness issues. Who knows. How many races did Rossi win on a Ducati? Duh, none!

Stoner handed Rossi a bike that Stoner was capable of winning, kinda, on, perhaps. This has no logical bearing to the argument, and ignores the class and rule changes.

Apparently, you watched the race from a helicopter, that's still pretty far away though. I am sure you were using binoculars though.

The Video Pass has the helicopter view, and they showed the view several times during the broad cast. We have two really cool inventions. The first is a TV, which allows me to see what the camera sees. Even cooler are these mirror like things which can actually zoom in and let you see closer than you are. It's called a lens.


Lastly, I am just a roadracing fan. A Ducati 1199S and an 848 owner. I own a SV650 track bike for track days. My riding skills are nowhere near any of those pro riders and I have never claimed otherwise either.

Then I am even more surprised by your "unbiased" view of the event and conspiracy involved for you version to be true.
 
Todd,
Are you kidding me, you're still going on and on about this. I am sorry, you thought I was giving you a compliment. I can tell that either you have stopped taking your anti-psychotic medication or your doctor needs to make a dosage adjustment on your anti-psychotic medication. You are experiencing delusions of grandeur, the constant and almost incoherent spewing of nonsensical babel, and the obsessive desire of caring what a stranger thinks. Caution, please don't take your own life or anyone else's and seek immediate medical attention! The up side is, if you stay on your medication you can still live a pretty decent life.

I am really embarrassed for you, that you would even take the time to respond to every single thing I said, not just once, but twice now! You have far too much time on your hands! Seriously, are you off your medication or are you just some kind of undisguised, nut job? Why is what I think about anything so important to you anyway, Todd? Really, why do you even care what I think, Todd? You know what, please don't answer any of those questions, Todd.

When and where did I say that I was biased or not? Why would you even care if I am bias about everything in the whole world anyway, Todd? If you're Mr. Unbiased, then good for you. And for your information, you have showed your bias towards me this whole time. Yet, I could care less.

If you're obsessive interest in me and what I think makes zero sense. I can only speculate as to why you're so interested me and what I think. Let me say, if it has anything to do with being together, adopting a baby together, or any such things, then I'm not interested. I am a straight, married man. Yes Todd, married to a real woman and we have real children together. Not that there is anything wrong with your feelings/interests, but please find some other man to fill your time with.

Please just remember to stay on your medication from now on, Todd. That way, I won't hurt your little feelings anymore and I don't have to see your incoherent blather either.
 
Duckymar,

You state that you don't have the time blah blah blah but you're entertaining Todd's posts as he continues to rip apart your posts n leaves u no leg to stand on. This is a forum and opinions are obviously welcome but logic far outweighs opinion.

Then again, keep it up. I'm thoroughly enjoying Todd's wordplay as he rips apart your posts.

Where the hell is my popcorn?
 
Todd,
Are you kidding me, you're still going on and on about this.

A more polite way to phrase your sentence would be, "Todd, thank you for responding to my response.” This way you couldn’t be ridiculed for the ironic fact of calling me out for the identical behavior you are engaging in.


I am sorry, you thought I was giving you a compliment.

I accept your apology.


I can tell that either you have stopped taking your anti-psychotic medication or your doctor needs to make a dosage adjustment on your anti-psychotic medication. You are experiencing delusions of grandeur, the constant and almost incoherent spewing of nonsensical babel, and the obsessive desire of caring what a stranger thinks.

Since the irony of your posting seems lost on you, I think we should focus on the slightly less obvious point. When immature people cannot debate in an educated and logical way they will often result to unfalsifiable insults.


Caution, please don't take your own life or anyone else's and seek immediate medical attention! The up side is, if you stay on your medication you can still live a pretty decent life.

See above response.

I am really embarrassed for you, that you would even take the time to respond to every single thing I said, not just once, but twice now! You have far too much time on your hands! Seriously, are you off your medication or are you just some kind of undisguised, nut job?

See both responses above. 

Perhaps you would be better served to debate or counter some of the points I have made instead of playing make-believe?

I respond to each one of your statements, regardless of their altitude on the ridiculous meter, because I think it is weak to gloss-over points that you cannot debate, not to mention disrespectful to the person you are discussing with. That is a proper run-on sentence by the way.


Why is what I think about anything so important to you anyway, Todd? Really, why do you even care what I think, Todd? You know what, please don't answer any of those questions, Todd. When and where did I say that I was biased or not? Why would you even care if I am bias about everything in the whole world anyway, Todd? If you're Mr. Unbiased, then good for you. And for your information, you have showed your bias towards me this whole time. Yet, I could care less.

On a personal level, I don’t really care about your biases. However, when you are going to post an opinion on a debated subject with factual sentences in a public forum, then you should anticipate discussion. A significant point in discussing your opinion ( which was posted about a debated subject with factual sentences in a public forum) was to point out an obvious bias in your opinion.



On a more interesting note, my name, Todd (you enjoy typing it and I don't blame you), is of angelo-sexton origin, and is likely English. It means “the Fox”. Todd has been a family name in England for many centuries. As was custom in the pioneer days, a mother would giver her family name as a given name to a son to preserve for future generations.

If you're obsessive interest in me and what I think makes zero sense. I can only speculate as to why you're so interested me and what I think. Let me say, if it has anything to do with being together, adopting a baby together, or any such things, then I'm not interested. I am a straight, married man. Yes Todd, married to a real woman and we have real children together. Not that there is anything wrong with your feelings/interests, but please find some other man to fill your time with.

Given your previous attempts at logic and your losing battle with reason, I can see how the above paragraph seems sensible. If I were gay, I would prefer a man who thinks like man, not one who argues with emotion and resorts to passive-aggressive insults when called out. Those are the vices of women and children. Maybe you can call me a pedophile next?

Please just remember to stay on your medication from now on, Todd. That way, I won't hurt your little feelings anymore and I don't have to see your incoherent blather either.

To be clear, you are not going to offer any examples of Rossi being a dirty rider in the last 7 years, you are not going to dispute that the other camera angles clearly show your tire-slide conspiracy to be ...., you are not going to debate the video evidence that shows Marc turning into Valentino’s tire, you are not going to counter the point that Race Direction clearly saw no intent, you are not going to debate Marc Marquez’s own words, nor will you debate Valentino’s words which are in accordance with Marc’s?



This is clearly a case of faith… You believe in something with absolutely no evidence to support your beliefs. And much like the faithful hide in a cloak of insults and misdirection when challenged (that is a sentence fragment).

If you would like to return this topic back to your posts and why I disagree with them, we can. If you would like to play make-believe and invent insults about me, that is okay too. It brings me back to the play ground in grade school. Maybe some "your momma" jokes next?
 
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brought-some-pop-corn.jpg
 
First off, as I stated "IMHO"

If you don't like opinion, that's fine work me. You Rossi Bots defend him no matter what he does.

Funny, if the situation was completely reversed and Rossi went down, all the Rossi Bots would be screaming! The difference with me is, I will defend anyone even if I don't like them.

Personally, I don't like Rossi, I think he is a big clown. He is a great rider no doubt about it, but not the GOAT he thinks he is. If GOAT stands for Goofiest Of All Time, then he earns that title. Rossi is a great rider, but super dirty too. If rubbing is racing, then he fits right in-like NASCAR. He is ambitious for sure and extremely media savvy. Does anyone remember how dirty Rossi was to Biaggi and Seth on and off the track!

The other reason I don't like him is his claim that he a great development rider. He developed the Ducati into a loser! Only now is Ducati finally turning things around, because Ducati has done away with most of his input. I don't blame Rossi for taking Ducati's money, that's Ducati's fault for putting so much stock/investment into Rossi's and Burgess's claims that they can turn the Ducati around with simple adjustments. Point being, don't claim to be the best development rider/engineer/crew chief on the earth/in the sport then turn Ducati into a total loser!


Ya I stand by what I said:
watch that video with side/view camera angle Rossi looks right over at Marques when he kicks his rearend out into the front wheel of Marques. He has done this something to Biaggi, Seth, and many other riders for years and years. He then uses his power in the media to cover/blame the other riders.




Again:
IMHO

Rossi passed MM twice cleanly, and MM passed back. Then MM got passed cleanly again, and he tried to get it back way too far inside and pranged VR. Then he aggressively flicked the bike over onto VR's rear tire.



VR was way inside. MM had the whole track to play with when he flicked the bike over. He gambled hard to flick it aggressively. We the world champ wants to gamble so hard for one race win startles me. He might have still been able to pass back later if he let VR go by. If you're both on the inside half of the track, the outside rider can't pinch the inside down, and vice versa mon the outside edge of the track. Racing line doesn't matter much, you can't use the whole track when you're racing side by side. MM gambled and lost.

But it looked like the Yam was faster that day as well.

Also it's well documented how stubborn and stupid the Ducati engineers were during the Stoner and VR era. They couldn't fathom that an easy to work on bike is a race adavantage. The just didn't understand that mechanics are racing as much as the riders are. Honda could try 3 setups in one practice where Ducati could barely get 2. It wasn't till Captain Unibrow used his majik unibrow powers and layed his pimp hand down hard that Ducati got it together.

You really think Ducati listened to a thing Rossi had to say?

Sometimes, when a team doesn't listen to it's techs, it's handy to find someone they'll listen to, that's saying the same thing.
 
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MM had the inside line..? no dude.. the person in front owns the line.. until the person behind has a front wheel past the guy he is passing.. then the one in front owns the track.. plan and simple.. that's TRACK DAY 101... it is the job of the guy passing to make it clean.. not the guy being passed to worry about the guy behind that's why race bikes don't have mirrors..

racing 101... block.. block block.. make your bike as wide as you can so the guy behind cant pass... that's how slower guys and stay p front longer... be hard to pass...
VR held off just a millisecond so MM would have to check himself a little before starting turn in... MM miss judged and paid the price...

Blocking in no longer a tactic allowed in many forms of racing. You get one shot to pick your line, adjusting it again and hitting a guy passing you will get you a drive through or a 10'er. In theory, you could block once. But not twice. One strategic chance to block, then you have to hold your line, which VR did, even though I don't consider anything in that vid as blocking.

Because, racing involves being side by side. There has to be some sportsmanship rules, otherwise it's Senna Vs Prost BS all over again.

If the racer behind you get half way up your cars inside, you can't come down and pinch them to the bottom of the track, you have to allow some room. In that scenario, you better brake early and let them by and try to flick under them.

Also, the inside car can't drift all the way to the outside of the track completely blocking the outside car being passed. Sometimes you see this in F1 get Ok'd. But if you tap that outside car, force him off the track, or cause an accident behind in the field, you'll be reviewed.

Rossi held a clean predictable, smooth line. Completely on his side of the track. He's 100% off the hook on this one. MM tried to put on a good show, but when you're this aggressive, you're going to go down eventually. I don't think MM hit VR on purpose either.

When MM was on the inside, he was clearly behind, and over cooked the turn and tapped Rossi. That's a cut and dry penalty right there. He was already out of it before they even started to flick back over to the other side. If MM would have waited 0.10 seconds longer to flick left, he wouldn't have went down.
 
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IMHO

Rossi held off for a millisecond for turning in...

Mm had it clocked and was just not expecting it. Rossi knew it because he is as experienced as he just is... He knew mm was on his tire (apex touch) and wanted to teach him a lesson.



Problem is now, MM Has learned it now ;)

Exactly. Rossi knew that MM's best chance was to carry speed around the outside, and that he would have to carve a tighter slower line. So he had to be a little slower than normal. He couldn't have anticipated such a hard cut inside.

Hopefully this all helped. Road racing and passing isn't as simple as motorcross that's for sure.
 

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