V4 owners - 15w50 oil reports with testing - Motul 300v / Redline Power Sports / Motul 7100 - Part 1

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NYCV4S said:
Now your making feel like an @$$hole lol. Your opinion or anyone’s is always appreciated. I was simply just telling you there’s plenty of data here compared to what you stated without reading it first that’s all. Cheers buddy. Ride safe!
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Na ! Buddy believe me you are not .... Don't worry we are here to help each other how we can .. every opinion bad or not is up to us to determine what is best you.... Have a great weekend be safe God bless 🙏.
 
Ok, It's been since September/ October when I went to Inde Motorsports Park. Ran the bike probably 15-18 laps. Haven't ridden the V4 since then as I have the Norden, KTM and now the Hyper 950. Rode the hell out of the 901 in Death Valley in November.

Anyway, first oil and filter change after that track day:



A lot different than a year or so ago:



Looks like some casting remnants:



Most of the brass or brass looking stuff is not as bad as before:



I was running AMSOIL 15-50 and I did top her off with Motul because well, I had already bought the .... and its bloody expensive.

Bike has 9900 miles with 9 or so track days. Oil changes are always after a track day and every 3,000 miles. Will be doing RL oil next time.
 
SirJAG said:
Do not start that bike. This is the best opportunity. You will have to get everything out.

The method you described above, will work great.

I ran Virgin redline for about 500 miles and then I dumped it completely

The next time I dumped 500 miles later, it still had a little bit of a greenish tent so I wouldn’t worry too much. It will take you a couple changes to get it all out.

All my miles are very hard and near red line I basically have less than a 20 minute drive to where I’m ripping it up.

I always ran 300 V fresh for track weekends though.

What I’m getting it is your 3000 miles if they weren’t very hard, may not be the Engine killer that it was for me

OK, I think I touched on everything you asked. Good luck, buddy!

Jag
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Thank you!!!!!
 
My latest data. Redline 15w-50. 1090mi on sample. Dumped and replaced with 20w-50/15w-50 mix (50/50) due to 15w availability issues.

My questions:

how did viscosity increase 500 miles later? This makes me think perhaps the first sample at 500 miles had left over 300v..

I bought this bike from original single owner. That guy never tracked and by looking at the tires when I got the bike from him, I’m not sure he ever drove it aggressively….. could the aluminum war that I’m seeing just be a function of break-in that’s happening many thousands of miles later due to me driving aggressively?

Probably no good answers to these questions. I reckon I just need to keep sampling every 500 miles to get a good trend line for aluminum and other metals.

Jag
 

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SirJAG said:
My latest data. Redline 15w-50. 1090mi on sample. Dumped and replaced with 20w-50/15w-50 mix (50/50) due to 15w availability issues.

My questions:

how did viscosity increase 500 miles later? This makes me think perhaps the first sample at 500 miles had left over 300v..

I bought this bike from original single owner. That guy never tracked and by looking at the tires when I got the bike from him, I’m not sure he ever drove it aggressively….. could the aluminum war that I’m seeing just be a function of break-in that’s happening many thousands of miles later due to me driving aggressively?

Probably no good answers to these questions. I reckon I just need to keep sampling every 500 miles to get a good trend line for aluminum and other metals.

Jag
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The viscosity could definitely be the factor in regards to left over 300v being in the case from last change. Also you used the 20w/50 mixed with 15/50

For aluminum , i remember reading something ( think i posted it in this thread) in regards to the aluminum of the v4 not being from the cyl bore since they are sleeved and coated. That would be the most important factor we can find is what the following are made of instead of assuming what traditional motors may have.

- Cams
- pistons / rings / rods
- bore sleeves
- crank
- transmission gears
- bearings


if any one has these answers it would be great to add to this thread.

Once we have this info , we can single out where alum and other metals are coming from. My sample from 400~ mile 300v should be coming soon as well , we will compare. It wasn't ridden too hard only dynoed for the final 20 miles of the oil then dropped.
 
NYCV4S said:
The viscosity could definitely be the factor in regards to left over 300v being in the case from last change. Also you used the 20/50 mixed.

For aluminum , i remember reading something ( think i posted it in this thread) in regards to the aluminum of the v4 not being a factor the cyl bore since they are sleeved and coated. That would be the most important factor we can find is what the following are made of instead of assuming what traditional motors may have.

- Cams
- pistons / rings / rods
- bore sleeves
- crank
- transmission gears
- bearings


if any one has these answers it would be great to add to this thread.

Once we have this info , we can single out where alum and other metals are coming from. My sample from 400~ mile 300v should be coming soon as well , we will compare. It wasn't ridden too hard only dynoed for the final 20 miles of the oil then dropped.
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This sample is on pure 15 W 50. When I drained, I refilled with the 50-50 mix due to availability issues.

Jag
 
SirJAG said:
This sample is on pure 15 W 50. When I drained, I refilled with the 50-50 mix due to availability issues.

Jag
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Gotcha , the viscosity looks great though from previous run with the remaining 300v in . Im also wondering why the Calcium and Zinc is lower as well , maybe an old batch , not sure.

How often are you on the rev limiter?
 
NYCV4S said:
Gotcha , the viscosity looks great though from previous run with the remaining 300v in . Im also wondering why the Calcium and Zinc is lower as well , maybe an old batch , not sure.

How often are you on the rev limiter?
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I would say I hit the limiter usually in third or fourth maybe 3 to 5 times in 500 miles

I’m trying to limit that but going by sound has been a recipe for failure and the dash lights I don’t recognize very well when moving at that speed

another solution might be warranted although I am getting a little better.

Jag
 
Tony I appreciate your help. I’ve actually used your virgin samples of 300v and red line as a baseline. I shared those reports with Speed this morning as well.

I’m wondering if I should start CCing you on these mails ha h

Jag
 
Yeah man here to help anytime , that's what this thread is for.

Great that you sent the virgin samples so he has the data there to review and compare.

as for hitting the rev limiter that could be your issue , the only true way to tell is to baby it for 1000 mi and compare. Wont be much fun however lol
 
NYCV4S said:
Yeah man here to help anytime , that's what this thread is for.

Great that you sent the virgin samples so he has the data there to review and compare.

as for hitting the rev limiter that could be your issue , the only true way to tell is to baby it for 1000 mi and compare. Wont be much fun however lol
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Zero chance I can baby it for 1000mi!

Also, his comments about the oil, the viscosity being thicker as it degrades doesn’t jive with what the data shows us on the 300 V sample shearing down so quickly

Also, I’ve always interpreted the first number for oil rating as the cold weight

So a 15 W 50 and 20 W 50 are both 50 weights, but the 20 will have slightly thicker properties until it is at operating temperature

If that logic is correct, then they’re reading at 100 C should negate the 15w and 20w variance??

Jag
 
SirJAG said:
Zero chance I can baby it for 1000mi!

Also, his comments about the oil, the viscosity being thicker as it degrades doesn’t jive with what the data shows us on the 300 V sample shearing down so quickly

Also, I’ve always interpreted the first number for oil rating as the cold weight

So a 15 W 50 and 20 W 50 are both 50 weights, but the 20 will have slightly thicker properties until it is at operating temperature

If that logic is correct, then they’re reading at 100 C should negate the 15w and 20w variance??

Jag
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The oil will thicken over prolonged use due to contamination just think of fresh oil compared to used oil in a car with 5k+ miles. But under high heat it will still show sheared down levels in the CST tests.

the first numbers represent cold rating yes but these lower cold ratings only retain their thickness on the higher temp end due to added polymers in the oil . Those polymers shear faster than lets say a heavier base oil to begin with since the higher base oils have less polymers.

like comparing a 10/40 and 20/40 , the 20w would have higher shear stability due to less polymers to begin with.

this increases with the higher heat rating oils as well. a 5/30 will be way more sheer stabil than a 15/50 because of all the polymers needed to keep the weight to a 50w even though the base is higher.
 
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I can see we are quickly dipping into the engineering side of these things. My understanding is limited. But I am thankful for your expertise and background.

Here the response from speed to my same questions

Jag
 

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SirJAG said:
I can see we are quickly dipping into the engineering side of these things. My understanding is limited. But I am thankful for your expertise and background.

Here the response from speed to my same questions

Jag
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You also have to let him know that both oils have ester in them , ester in oils will show high oxidation from virgin samples. My virgin reports will show this data.
 
The aluminum number is weird because nickasil bores don't wear much and the rings are running against the nickasil not aluminum. Doesn't seem right. I don't think there's anything place where aluminum is being used as a thrust face at least internal to the actual crankcase. Maybe from the gearbox somehow. I still have that 19 motor sitting apart waiting for parts so I'll look again. The piston skirts should be burnished enough by now so the wear should be low. The copper went down from the last test, right. The primary source of that would be the rod small ends.
 
baggerman said:
The aluminum number is weird because nickasil bores don't wear much and the rings are running against the nickasil not aluminum. Doesn't seem right. I don't think there's anything place where aluminum is being used as a thrust face at least internal to the actual crankcase. Maybe from the gearbox somehow. I still have that 19 motor sitting apart waiting for parts so I'll look again. The piston skirts should be burnished enough by now so the wear should be low. The copper went down from the last test, right. The primary source of that would be the rod small ends.
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correct me if i am wrong here but isn't the clutch material also copper based?

i was also thinking maybe the aluminum is from the gear box , see if those gears are made of some sort of billet aluminum that would be the primary source of the wear if so.
 
NYCV4S said:
correct me if i am wrong here but isn't the clutch material also copper based?

i was also thinking maybe the aluminum is from the gear box , see if those gears are made of some sort of billet aluminum that would be the primary source of the wear if so.
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The only thing I see is the idler (that reverses rotation to the clutch) runs on an aluminum boss. The inside of the gear has a babbitt bearing and has a pressurized oil feed. The boss on the 19 motor (which has 14k miles) shows slight scoring on the aluminum boss. If this wears enough you'd have to sleeve it to fix it. I don't see anywhere else.
 
baggerman said:
The only thing I see is the idler (that reverses rotation to the clutch) runs on an aluminum boss. The inside of the gear has a babbitt bearing and has a pressurized oil feed. The boss on the 19 motor (which has 14k miles) shows slight scoring on the aluminum boss. If this wears enough you'd have to sleeve it to fix it. I don't see anywhere else.
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okay good to know .

The main trans gears are made of what material , steel? Does a magnet stick to them?
 

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