V4 Panigale Clutch Fade Problems

RdashP said:

Tx for explaining how to setup a stock master.
Does this also work with a foldable aftermarket clutch-lever from EP?
Better understanding your know-how, my Duc tech could be reading with us. So plz be nice?

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Yep if it's using the stock pivot. If my phone took decent pictures I'd post one. So when beautiful gets home I'll use her phone and post a close-up. But looking right at the top of the pivot you'll see a tiny hex screw. That's to lock the shaft. Loosen it and then near the boot you'll see a small hex on the shaft (like a 6 or 7 mm wrench) turn it towards the pivot to shorten it a bit. Bleed the system, tie the lever off overnight and go flog it and see if it helped.

RdashP said:

Tx for explaining. So @baggerman is suggesting to get myself a vintage one from the Ducati museum? lol

Aha so this Oberon slave is better then CNCracing its after-market clutch-slave option?
25k miles, 95% moderate road-use

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I used the Oberon on my 1199 and now my V4. I can't say if its better than the CNC, just that's its what I used with success. At one point I had ordered some CNC Racing carbon fiber thing and didn't like the quality. It kind of turned me off to the brand. Nor am I into anodized farkles, which they seem to make a lot of.

The self bleeding masters got put on the V4 starting with the 2021 MY and were the ones previously used on the SL V4. They have the same plunger setup as the older masters.

I have TWM levers (Ducati Performance OEM before they went to Rizoma) which use a different plunger setup. The TWM plungers appear to be billet and turned down. See pic below, they're the silver pieces in the clear plastic bags.

baggerman said:

Stock OEM radial master. Back the screw out like a quarter turn. … Try the screw first. If it makes it better but doesn't fix it completely go a little more. The most likely 2nd culprit will be the slave. I don't like the aftermarket ones as they decrease clutch plate separation. Anyway they can suck air as the lever is released. Your dealer is a moron by the way.

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OK sorry few more noob questions:

With the OEM/3rd party “radial master”, do you mean the ‘clutch body’ as base attached to the clip-on or the to this base attached OEM/3rd party ‘clutch-lever?

Is the little screw you’re referring to hidden in the base or the lever?
Do I need to detach the lever from the base to access this little screw somewhere?

Is the cylinder/ piston installed in the clutch body a separately serviceable/ replacement part, similarly as e.g. CNC offers as replacement internals (link) ín the OEM factory clutch slave housing?

Big tx

bp_SFV4 said:

I used the Oberon on my 1199 and now my V4. I can't say if its better than the CNC, just that's its what I used with success. At one point I had ordered some CNC Racing carbon fiber thing and didn't like the quality. It kind of turned me off to the brand. Nor am I into anodized farkles, which they seem to make a lot of.

The self bleeding masters got put on the V4 starting with the 2021 MY and were the ones previously used on the SL V4. They have the same plunger setup as the older masters.

I have TWM levers (Ducati Performance OEM before they went to Rizoma) which use a different plunger setup. The TWM plungers appear to be billet and turned down. See pic below, they're the silver pieces in the clear plastic bags.

View attachment 55883

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Perfect (thanks SFV4) it appears the plunger threads into pivot same as a stock one. I can't see the set screw but I suspect it's there. Pull the lever outwards and you'll see a set screw. Or if it isn't there just screw the plunger into the pivot some. I would be surprised if Ducati carried any parts for these but I've never looked.

RdashP said:

With the OEM/3rd party “radial master”, do you mean the ‘clutch body’ as base attached to the clip-on or the to this base attached OEM/3rd party ‘clutch-lever?

Is the little screw you’re referring to hidden in the base or the lever?
Do I need to detach the lever from the base to access this little screw somewhere?

Is the cylinder/ piston installed in the clutch body a separately serviceable/ replacement part, similarly as e.g. CNC offers as replacement internals (link) ín the OEM factory clutch slave housing?

Big tx

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The master cylinders are what attach to the clip-ons. There are radial and axial master cylinders.

The cylinder on an axial is inline with the lever, pictured below. Radial masters have the cylinder 90 degrees from the lever.

The slave cylinder is what attaches to the engine. For the clutch, you pull the clutch lever and the piston in the master pressurizes the fluid which then acts on the piston in the slave, which presses on a rod to take pressure off of the clutch disks so they spin freely.

Picture from a Revzilla Common Tread article:




I can take a picture of the screw/plunger @baggerman is talking about when I get home. I have my stock levers, which use the same plunger as the OEM levers in a box in my basement.

I would think you could get a new piston for the Brembo (OEM) clutch slave cylinder as a replacement, probably in a rebuild kit from Brembo. I know they sell rebuild kits for calipers which include new pistons and seals. But, for how low cost of an item it is, I'd just replace the slave cylinder with a higher quality aftermarket one.

These are the OEM plungers.



There’s a very small set screw on the bottom that has blue loctite on it and is meant to keep it from screwing in further or backing out. You’d likely have to heat it or risk stripping it out.

The overall length on mine is 30mm on both. I’d suggest making sure they’re at 30mm before doing anything else.

I don’t really concur with adjusting them, outside of getting it to 30mm. There are a few potential issues with adjusting them. Screwing them in too far might increase the free play in the lever. Screwing them out would increase the lever’s distance from the bar, but too much would engage the clutch.

Wow! @baggerman & @bp_SFV4 you know your stuff. Big thank you!
This really helps understanding the different (replacement-) parts involved and how to (also!) set them up properly.

As @baggerman rightfully says, it's indeed a mistery why-o-why with this required knowhow doesn't Bologna continue to correctly install ánd setup all different parts of the V4 clutchsystem from factory a/o our Duc dealers during maintenance/ replacement (i.e. if needed with more bling/ higher spec exotic/ compatibility-wise unknown 3rd party parts combo's) like before during the 'beltdrive-era', to finally fully mitigate the rootcause(s)?

Since it must be móre expensive and seemingly endlessly frustrating for us (noob) customers and (unaware) dealers, than it is profitable and for sure bad for the Ducati 'quality' brand-perception with all these 'TSB' recalls and senseless replacement attemps (many under warrantee)?

Anyway, I will:

1) DiY check the setup, length and tolerances of the TBD type plunger installed in my EP lever-OEM Brembo clutch master combo to make sure.

2) If seemingly OK, I will roadride Bella the coming mountenous trip with this current setup to experience if air stays out of the clutch-system, especially in thin air (2000m+/6000ft+ ASL).

3) If this issue keeps re-occuring, I will also have both master- and slave-housings including its befitting internals (pistons/ cylinders) replaced with your even better quality recommendations ánd have them correctly setup as you explained.

4) with 100% correct/ compatible individual parts, repeat steps 1-2 until solved

Cheers, Robert

bp_SFV4 said:

I don’t really concur with adjusting them, outside of getting it to 30mm. There are a few potential issues with adjusting them. Screwing them in too far might increase the free play in the lever. Screwing them out would increase the lever’s distance from the bar, but too much would engage the clutch.

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This is a good point. Just a little at a time. You want the length just right, not too long as the port stays open, not too short as there will be lost motion at the lever. I would not take anything apart just make the small adjustment and then ride the bike. If this doesn't fix it then most likely the slave leaks as it is released. You can test these for leaks but you need to take the slave off the bike (leaving everything else assembled) and make a small fixture so you can check it. Personally, I have never lost a clutch slave on any of my Ducati's that were built after about 93. This includes the notorious early ones that allegedly always failed. But I change the fluid regularly as the heat front the engine kills the fluid.

RdashP said:

Anyway, I will:

2) If seemingly OK, I will roadride Bella the coming mountenous trip with this current setup to experience if air stays out of the clutch-system, especially in thin air (2000m+/6000ft+ ASL).

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During our last roadtrip some weeks ago upto 1000m ASL with moderate citytraffic in a relative chilly autumn-like climate (~10oC/50oF), the clutch held itself fine wo the need to bleed.

Off course, the real test above 2000m/6000ft ASL a/o citytraffic in summertime (>25oC with lots of low speed clutch-action) is pending for next year...
This to verify if indeed the installed thicker clutch-hose and extra heat-shielding do their insulating job sufficiently to prevent the clutch-system from becoming too hot (i.e. root-cause, resulting in air buildup in the master-cylinder).

If not, I will try 3 as suggested.

If the issue keeps happening after validating bleeding, replace the slave cylinder.