V4 Panigale Clutch Fade Problems

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Keith197 said:
Anyone know if there is a difference with the ducabike clutch vs the stm?
Click to expand...
Oh that is a great question then!

Aren’t both of those cork?

If APE or Barnett makes RED fibers to fit the z48 basket I can tell you from experience that those last much longer than cork

I’ve also seen Kevlar frictions but have never ran them
 
RdashP said:
During our last 4000km/2500miles trip through the Alps, I again needed to remedy the PV4s increasing clutch-fade twice by bleeding the air buildup from the slave-cylinder. Only minor air buildup: half a lever-throw each time.

My wifes M1100evo on the other hand is much worse. That thing eats Dot4 oil for breakfast during that trip: we needed to refill her expansion canister on the Monster its handlebar twice since it was completely empty! There is for sure again a leak in her clutch system. A few years ago we already replaced her master-cylinder. Not sure where the leak is this time...
Click to expand...

My dealership ‘gave up’ on permanently fixing this mild issue under street-use usage with sub-optimal cooling. This besides of course always executing a perfect bleed procedure with racegrade ‘Motul RBF660 Factory Line’ installed as best ‘OEM’ options to delay this issue.

Of course in cold climates and on track - as it was designed for - its a non-issue.
I’m fine with it. Move on.
 
For 2021 V4 has moved this from Bug to a Feature ;)
"The Panigale V4 and Panigale V4 S models are also equipped with new self-bleeding brake and clutch pumps derived from those used for the first time on the Superleggera V4"
www.ducati.com

Ducati Panigale V4: The Evolution of Speed

The Panigale V4 2022 represents the last step in the characteristic path of the Borgo Panigale sports bikes. The improvements involve all areas: aerodynamics, ergonomics, engine, chassis and electronics. The result is an even faster and more intuitive bike.
www.ducati.com

I wonder how crazy it would be to upgrade?
 
Vbreeze said:
...moved this from Bug to a Feature...
Click to expand...
LOL well it does mean you can now replace the master clutchpump on clipon with an expensive self-bleeding alternative.

Too bad DMH/ dealer doesn’t acknowledge this as automated fix for symptom (i.e. air buildup) of still unsolved rootcause (i.e. access heat) and replaces this consequently under warranty as recall/TSB.

Since problem mainly occurs mildly under (too) hot street-use, I can imagine DMH considers such streetusage of a for racing designed machine as sub-optimal, outside intended ideal operational window (i.e. closed circuit racing).
Total recall costs for DMH would be disproportionate to severity of problem IMO.

No problem for me. I stick with the manual INexpensive quick-fix: always carry wrench 11 in case it requires the occasional micro-bleed again. Executed ✅ in less than a minute.
 
I'm glad they came out with that for '21. Really the clutch isn't fading it's that you get a small bubble in the clutch pump line. Usually fixed with a quick bleed at the pump. You don't have to do a full bleed.. Just a few releases.

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
 
Hi guys,
Although I occasionally still do read your vivid discussions, long time no write from my side.
Therefore just a small update.

Last December, my Duc dealer decided to replace both the master- ánd slave-cylinder of the PV4 clutchsystem.
The slave-cylinder inside/ attached to the engine was replaced with a 3rd party 'CNC' part.
I guess, as many of you also recommended here before, from CNC Racing?

Since during the last years of riding, even with racegrade Motul RBF660/700 Factory Line in, I was still bleeding the PV4 clutch multiple times a day after riding up medium to high (2000m/ 6000ft+) mountain passes to remedy this buildup of access air around the mastercyinder. This way at least regaining the necessary clutch function.

Sadly replacing both clutch-cylinders didn't remedy the root-cause, since I was still bleeding my clutch at the master-cylinder as often a/o under the same conditions.

As last resort under warranty my dealer now also replaced the clutch-hose between both cylinders to the most recent/thicker version used in all V4's currently sold.

Will this combo of best available heatresistant fluid ánd new/ 3rd part clutch cylinders ánd a 'bulletproof' hose, finally solve this clutchfade-issue?
We'll see...
 
RdashP said:
Hi guys,
Although I occasionally still do read your vivid discussions, long time no write from my side.
Therefore just a small update.

Last December, my Duc dealer decided to replace both the master- ánd slave-cylinder of the PV4 clutchsystem.
The slave-cylinder inside/ attached to the engine was replaced with a 3rd party 'CNC' part.
I guess, as many of you also recommended here before, from CNC Racing?

Since during the last years of riding, even with racegrade Motul RBF660/700 Factory Line in, I was still bleeding the PV4 clutch multiple times a day after riding up medium to high (2000m/ 6000ft+) mountain passes to remedy this buildup of access air around the mastercyinder. This way at least regaining the necessary clutch function.

Sadly replacing both clutch-cylinders didn't remedy the root-cause, since I was still bleeding my clutch at the master-cylinder as often a/o under the same conditions.

As last resort under warranty my dealer now also replaced the clutch-hose between both cylinders to the most recent/thicker version used in all V4's currently sold.

Will this combo of best available heatresistant fluid ánd new/ 3rd part clutch cylinders ánd a 'bulletproof' hose, finally solve this clutchfade-issue?
We'll see...
Click to expand...
Find a radial master from the beltdrive superbikes. I not sure what happened after to the masters but after those many complaints. The new self bleeding masters blow (suck). If you have an earlier non self bleeding master try backing the grubscrew in the end of the lever out one quarter turn. These may be potted in from the factory but you can get it right out. If the grubscrew is adjusted wrong the piston never retracts fully and you now have an air pump. IMHO if you have a self bleeding one just throw it away.
 
I thot I'd better explain this a little better. In the lever sorta hidden by the lever itself there's a little tiny hex set screw. Loosen that. Then you want shorten the piston plunger to piston clearance. You want to insure the piston fully seats and covers the port to the reservoir. So you're turning the screw further into the pivot and shortening it's length. It's like a 7mm wrench.
 
Motul 660/700 is more hygroscopic than other fluids and needs to be changed more often. If you have the most up to date master/slave/hose and still having problems, try Endless RF 650. Noticed the fluid doesn’t change color as quick and is allegedly less compressive
 
baggerman said:
Find a radial master from the beltdrive superbikes. I not sure what happened after to the masters but after those many complaints. The new self bleeding masters blow (suck). If you have an earlier non self bleeding master try backing the grubscrew in the end of the lever out one quarter turn. These may be potted in from the factory but you can get it right out. If the grubscrew is adjusted wrong the piston never retracts fully and you now have an air pump. IMHO if you have a self bleeding one just throw it away.
Click to expand...

Hi tx, as far as I understand my dealer(s) changed the following to my OEM clutch-system over the years in order of succession:

1- Under SRV-TSB-18-019 the (1st) CLUTCH HOSE REPLACEMENT was done (#16);

2- Since most recent years, with every maintenance, the more heat-resistant ‘racegrade’ Motul RBF660 Factory Line replaces whatever Dot4 was originally in there;

3- The original (Brembo?) master-clutch housing is still installed on the clipon of the 2018 PV4 (never got totally replaced by a recent self-bleeding master-clutch). Only part of its internals were re-newed by the same OEM Brembo part(s) (i.e. master-piston/ -cylinder?).

4- The original (Brembo?) slave-clutch housing is still attached to the engine. Again also only its internals were replaced by a stronger/ better <to me unknown> 3rd party parts from ‘CNC’ (i.e. slave-piston/ -cylinder);

5- (2nd) CLUTCH HOSE REPLACEMENT to the current OEM version now installed in all V4’s with exactly this engine configuration;

6- additional heat-shielding in between this latest 3rd clutch-hose and engine was added in certain places/ hotspots.


Anything else which should have been done additionally a/o differently to remedy this issue fully and permanently?
 
By beltdrive, he’s referring to bikes prior to the Panigale that had belt driven timing systems.

I’m surprised the dealer would rebuild the master and slave cylinder instead of replacing them both. I'd likely replace the cheaper slave cylinder with an Oberon one before changing the more expensive master.

Ducati Clutch Slave Cylinder CLU-1103 by Oberon Performance

Oberon Performance's Ducati Clutch Slave Cylinder CLU-1103 improves upon the original Ducati unit by better design, manufacturing techniques and a smoother lighter action.
www.oberon-performance.co.uk

How many miles are on the bike?
 
Ok. Stock master. Back the screw out like a quarter turn. Rebleed. I have had 2 clutch masters misadjusted as delivered (one from ducati, one as a OEM replacement so I could go to the last version of the 1198 which had the pivot moved for greater travel). Try the screw first. If it makes it better but doesn't fix it completely go a little more. The most likely 2nd culprit will be the slave. I don't like the aftermarket ones as they decrease clutch plate separation. Anyway they can suck air as the lever is released. Your dealer is a moron by the way.
 
bp_SFV4 said:
By beltdrive, he’s referring to bikes prior to the Panigale that had belt driven timing systems.

I’m surprised the dealer would rebuild the master and slave cylinder instead of replacing them both. I'd likely replace the cheaper slave cylinder with an Oberon one before changing the more expensive master.

Ducati Clutch Slave Cylinder CLU-1103 by Oberon Performance

Oberon Performance's Ducati Clutch Slave Cylinder CLU-1103 improves upon the original Ducati unit by better design, manufacturing techniques and a smoother lighter action.
www.oberon-performance.co.uk

How many miles are on the bike?
Click to expand...
Tx for explaining. So @baggerman is suggesting to get myself a vintage one from the Ducati museum? lol

Aha so this Oberon slave is better then CNCracing its after-market clutch-slave option?
25k miles, 95% moderate road-use
 
RdashP said:
Tx for explaining. So @baggerman is suggesting to get myself a vintage one from the Ducati museum? lol

Aha so this Oberon slave is better then CNCracing its after-market clutch-slave option?
25k miles, 95% moderate road-use
Click to expand...

Funny. All the OEM radial masters have the same adjustment until the self bleeding bit. And the castings are all the same (2 one left/ one right), the only thing they ever changed was the lever (last year 1198 superbikes) and obviously piston size vs application. So they're the same. Bolt right on. I put a 1198 brake master PR18/19 on my V4 streetfighter to help compensate for the ABS. Then I put stylema's and the stock V4 master onto my 1198. This combination without the ABS is awesome. So good. I replaced m-50's and an RCS. Anyway, you can buy an OEM beltdrive master pretty cheap unlike the later ones. I can't believe your dealer can't fix this. Ridiculous. Change dealers.
 
baggerman said:
Ok. Stock master. Back the screw out like a quarter turn. Rebleed. I have had 2 clutch masters misadjusted as delivered (one from ducati, one as a OEM replacement so I could go to the last version of the 1198 which had the pivot moved for greater travel). Try the screw first. If it makes it better but doesn't fix it completely go a little more. The most likely 2nd culprit will be the slave. I don't like the aftermarket ones as they decrease clutch plate separation. Anyway they can suck air as the lever is released. [PEEP].
Click to expand...
Tx for explaining how to setup a stock master.
Does this also work with a foldable aftermarket clutch-lever from EP?
Better understanding your know-how, my Duc tech could be reading with us. So plz be nice? :)
 

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