V4 Panigale Clutch Fade Problems

So the other day, sometime this weekend. I managed to dig the V4 out of the garage by moving my other bikes out of the way. Double checked my backpack to make sure I brought everything I meant to. Put on my gloves. Tried to put on my helmet with the gloves on. Then took gloves off to put on the helmet. Put on my riding boots. Go out to a bike that's warming up. Just as I was about to throw a leg over and take off... I realized, I forgot to bleed the clutch.

It's been going soft for a while since I have to bring it to the dealer broken, or they just tell me everything is fine. But I had to bleed because I wanted to go on a 200-mile round trip ride. How many times has this happened to you Ducati owners? When can I stop bringing my 11mm wrench with me on rides?

Does the new clutch hose replacement "recall" solve the issue of clutch fade because I can tell you other tried "solutions" that don't work:
1. Replacing the clutch master cylinder.
2. Replacing the clutch slave.
3. Replacing the stock fluid with Motul RB600 or Castrol SRF.

There are only the hoses left to replace. Has anyone gone to the dealer for a clutch hose replacement and solve clutch fade problems?

V4 Problems.

1/ welcome to the forum

2/ there is a clutch cable recall, which will reduce the inner diameter from 3 to 2mm

Did you replace like for like on the master and slave cylinders?
The V4 isn’t the only bike that suffers from this. I have to carry an 11mm spanner when I am out on my 1299. The issue can only be at the slave or the master cylinders; I don’t think that the hoses can admit air over time. I have had a new master cylinder fitted under warranty. It fixed the issue for a while, but now its back. My local service engineer told me that he suspects that the OEM master cylinder is the culprit. He suggested that if I want a permanent solution I should replace the master with the proper Brembo equivalent. At the moment I am putting up with bleeding te clutch when required. It is easy and doesn’t take long.

Is the clutch cable recall out relatively new? I can only find 5 on the VHTSA. 2 Fuel, 1 oil cooler, 1 hydraulic tension bolt, and 1 brake friction pad recall.


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I had the clutch hose recall done and did two track days and with no need to bleed. So far I would say that it has fixed the issue but have not done any long rides.

razz said:

Did you replace like for like on the master and slave cylinders?
The V4 isn’t the only bike that suffers from this. I have to carry an 11mm spanner when I am out on my 1299. The issue can only be at the slave or the master cylinders; I don’t think that the hoses can admit air over time. I have had a new master cylinder fitted under warranty. It fixed the issue for a while, but now its back. My local service engineer told me that he suspects that the OEM master cylinder is the culprit. He suggested that if I want a permanent solution I should replace the master with the proper Brembo equivalent. At the moment I am putting up with bleeding te clutch when required. It is easy and doesn’t take long.

Click to expand...

It is easy, that is not the problem, but it becomes a huge annoyance, especially if you do 250-300+ miles in a day. I would bleed at the beginning of a ride and by the end of the day on my way home, the clutch would not engage at a stop, even with the lever against the bars.

I had the same replaced: master, slave, multiple types of fluid, without any change to the lever feel after 250-300 miles.

Funny how it seems like the stumbling/fueling issues, and clutch issues, with the 1299 just carried over to the new model without being fixed.

I think someone else said something akin to this -- they never bothered to refine or fix the issues with the previous model before pushing this one out, and their QC has dropped drastically because they are failing to scale to produce bikes on the level they are trying to.

There's a fair share of "quirks" with just about every model I've owned that end up becoming something owners just deal with over time. The fuel sensor TSB on the Multistrada's was a freaking joke, as was the rear brake bleed procedure (this one has extended to multiple models of Ducati's I've owned).

I had the recall done which simply changed the black rubber tube from the oil reservoir it has been perfect since and I even had to adjust it back a few clicks on the lever. All good. Cheers

Desmolvr said:

I had the clutch hose recall done and did two track days and with no need to bleed. So far I would say that it has fixed the issue but have not done any long rides.

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Desmo is the clutch recall official or will a dealer just do it? I've seen no paperwork or anything put out by Ducati on it.

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I thought it was official but depending on when the bike was built. I had it in for the oil cooler so they did the clutch & added radiator & cooler guards for me.

Desmolvr said:

I thought it was official but depending on when the bike was built. I had it in for the oil cooler so they did the clutch & added radiator & cooler guards for me.

Click to expand...

Ok maybe mine doesn't need the recall then, my VIN number doesn't show anything.

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It is not a recall. You guys need to understand the difference between a TSB and a recall.

There's about 10-12 TSBs for the bike and 5 recalls. This is basically a way of a mfg ....... you. Ford, GM, etc. all do it.

Recalls are the only thing that they are technically responsible for financially, and these will generally be immediate issues that will result in harm to the rider if not taken care of.

A TSB, it's related labor and parts, can be charged to the customer, or taken care of for free, depending on the dealer. TSBs are generally less known about, as well. These are generally "annoyances," or what we like to call "features" at the Ducati forums.

The quickshifter is a TSB. The clutch issue is a TSB. The kickstand issue is a TSB. There's even some for electronics.

panis said:

It is not a recall. You guys need to understand the difference between a TSB and a recall.

There's about 10-12 TSBs for the bike and 5 recalls. This is basically a way of a mfg ....... you. Ford, GM, etc. all do it.

Recalls are the only thing that they are technically responsible for financially, and these will generally be immediate issues that will result in harm to the rider if not taken care of.

A TSB, it's related labor and parts, can be charged to the customer, or taken care of for free, depending on the dealer. TSBs are generally less known about, as well. These are generally "annoyances," or what we like to call "features" at the Ducati forums.

The quickshifter is a TSB. The clutch issue is a TSB. The kickstand issue is a TSB. There's even some for electronics.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that response Panis that all makes sense now. So it looks like it's dealer discretion on whether they will take care of specific TSBs. Is there a good website showing the Panigale V4 TSBs?

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Litening1199 said:

Thanks for that response Panis that all makes sense now. So it looks like it's dealer discretion on whether they will take care of specific TSBs. Is there a good website showing the Panigale V4 TSBs?

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Click to expand...

This is sort of the other beauty of TSBs for dealers...

You have to ask your dealer for the full list normally. I have found certain ones for some of my vehicles (non Ducati and Ducati [related to rear brake]) floating around the internet just by searching the internet for the problem sometimes pops it up as they are usually THAT COMMON of a problem.

I think to get a list without a dealer, you need to submit a request to NHTSA with your VIN and they will mail you a paper copy of the list after 4-6 weeks.

TSBs, also, in general, are for technicians at the dealership, and not the general public. Lots of times it has technical details (steps) on how to fix the issue, along with related part #s required for the fix. That is why in general they are not "free" by default as a recall is (even out of warranty, recalls are free). However, if a TSB is out there, it means there's a systemic issue with the product that has caused enough issues to warrant a company creating documentation on the problem, the fix, and the parts required for them.

Here's a couple of examples of what they normally look like:

Motorcycle Info Pages - MTS1200 Service & Maintenance > Rear Brake Bleeding

https://ford.oemdtc.com/1741/14s17-engine-wiring-splice-repair-2013-2014-ford-focus-escape

The second link is listed as recall for several models of Fords, but is a TSB for other models. The harness gets cut through by vibrating against a sharp piece of molded plastic that was cheaply made en masse.

Thanks for the responses.

FYI, replacing the master or the slave with another new OEM part does not work. The clutch fade comes back. Maybe not in the first 200 miles, but it does come back. And you will soon have to bleed as you did before, every 200 miles.

Same for replacing the clutch fluids. Whether it's with OEM brake fluid, Motul, or Castrol. You might think the problem is fixed because you didn't have to bleed for 600 miles, but slowly and surely, fade comes back. Then it's the usual 200-mile bleed intervals.

I'm sure you guys have read the same posts I have where people who replaced the master+slave with aftermarket reported the problem solved. This really only adds more speculation to why this mystery problem is still around. Especially for those who owned a 1199/1299. Maybe they replaced that small black hose that runs from the master cylinder to the reservoir? Don't know, but it doesn't help when they claim there are no clutch fade problems and they show a pic of their 1299 with Brembo RCS master and Oberon slave.

For those who ask, the clutch "recall" isn't official (its a TSB?) so you won't see it ever when you look up your VIN. My VIN doesn't show the clutch recall, only the "oil cooler replacement" and "timing chain tensioner torque update". The build date on my V4S is 2/2018 so I'm not sure if ones built on a later date gets to experience these persistent nagging issues.

Since 2 people mentioned it seemed to fix the problem I guess I'll make the leap and schedule service to find out what happens. I'll try to report back, but if I don't it's probably because I'll be out riding instead of on the internet complaining.

V4 Problems.

Update.

Finally took my bike into the dealer for what I thought was 2 (official) recalls. But when I took it in, they mentioned they would probably keep it for a week and a half because they need to do 6 recalls. Nice! Right?

SRV-TSB-18-019 CLUTCH HOSE REPLACEMENT. Done. The fn clutch. Despite what others have said on this forum. They did not replace the 4 inch hose that goes from the master to the reservoir. I sounded like a broken record asking the dealer and the mechanic the same question numerous times if it was only that small hose, and they gave the same answer every time; which was no. They replaced the clutch line that goes from the master to the slave. Did it fix the problem? I won't know until a get a few hundred miles later, however I am optimistic as others have said it has fixed the issue of fade. If the clutch feels the same as it did today when i picked it up in 400 and then 800 miles later without a bleed, I will consider it fixed.

SRV-RCL-18-006 OIL COOLER REPLACEMENT. Done

SRV-TSB-10-015 REAR SPEED SENSOR UPDATE. Done.

SRV-TSB-18-018 ECCENTRIC HUB FASTENING TORQUE UPDATE. Done

SRV-RCL-18-008 HYDRAULIC TENSIONER TIGHTENING TORQUE UPDATE. Done.

SRV-TSB-18-019 CLUTCH HOSE REPLACEMENT. Done.

SRV-TSB-19-001 EXHAUST MANIFOLD AND BOWDEN CABLE REPLACEMENT. Done. This would've been a surprise to be had I not spoke to other local panigale v4 owners who had this done. According to the mechanic the sensor bung welds on the header were ...... and apparently would give out if you pushed your bike a lot. Luckily I didn't notice any odd problems before i brought it in, but they replaced them anyways. They only replace the headers, not the entire exhaust system (cat and muffler).

Today riding my V4s through busy city traffic, as the bike got toasty the clutch-lever got progressively more mushy to the point of barely disengaging.

Luckily I could quickly dail-in a few clicks more travel on my adjustable EP clutch lever, to increase the distance to grip for maximizing the remaining functional travel.

Funny enough after it cooled down for an hour or so, away to an exhibition, when I returned most of the fade was gone and no need to bleed the master cylinder with wrench-no.11 as I was required to do before once.

Again, after 45 minutes of trouble free highway cruising, back in slow traffic the progressive clutch fade started again. Within 15 minutes, I barely had any functional clutch-function left just enough to make it home.

The TSB for a narrower clutchhose between master- and slave cylinder is already installed on my V4S.

If clutch travel returns after cool-down of the V4 and fade only occurs during slow traffic, is this also a reason to replace the clutch its master- a/o slave cylinder?

No,

The hose replacement, doesn’t fix the issue

It comes back after 4 or 6 rides



Anyone with an aftermarket solution ?

I had the hose change done, but then they also replaced the fluid with a high temp race spec. I will get the details as i didn’t buy the fluid because it was $100 a bottle so I just paid for what was needed.

I have even seen setups with an RCS master, aftermarket slave, and high temp fluid still experience this issue.

I was able to permanently remedy this for a few 1299s and a V4S:

1. Properly bleed the entire clutch circuit

- Set clipon clutch lever near full throw while bleeding (fine tune after bleeding)
- Bleed master, then slave, then master again. Do not over tighten the bleed nipples. Most people do, resulting in damaged bleed nipples that slowly allow air to re-enter the clutch circuit. I do not use a vacuum bleeder - just simple tubing and hand tools.

2. After bleeding is complete, set the clipon clutch lever at the appropriate distance to ensure you are moving enough fluid. Do not set it too short. The throw will need to be longer if you are using an aftermarket slave.

3. Use appropriate high quality fluid and make sure the level is above the minimum at all times. If it dips below during bleeding or afterwards, air will renter the clutch circuit.

I always test to ensure the clutch is not dragging
- Put bike on rear stand
- Ignition on in Neutral
- Engage 1st gear let rear wheel spin
- Fully pull in clipon clutch lever
- Depress rear brake and release

At this point your rear wheel should completely stop. If it continues to spin, ignition off and increase the clipon clutch lever throw and repeat. If the clutch is still dragging, you most likely still have air in the circuit.

***Do not apply throttle while the bike is on the rear stand, and keep an eye on your rear wheel at all times. Your rear wheel can slip off a single sided rear stand under throttle***

Many shops do not properly bleed the clutch circuits, resulting in an only temporary fix.

I have not come across a defective master pump yet (yes I know they exist and a few recalls have been issued as well), only improperly bled clutch circuits and improperly set lever throw.

On my properly maintained R, I can click into neutral with just the slightest pressure, my fluids are always clear, and everything runs flawlessly.