wsbk ducati short on power

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mark419ny said:
good point eleven that was amazing in race one when he went off the track. all the races were entertaining. WSS was great!

so your argument is that ducati has the wrong rider on the platform? management could have got JR he was a free agent from honda.

are you saying that JR would have won on the panigale? or are you saying that down the straights davies didnt have the bike wide open? or are you saying davies gave up because of the "attitude" of the kawi and ape rider?

also JR own honda lead a few laps so what is the explanation for that?
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Actually I think Chaz is a very good rider for Ducati. He is a thinking racer and is more consistent than Davide. I remember at Aragon last year Davide and Rea were battling on the final lap. Rea's Honda wasn't all that quick, but Davide decided to pass Rea going onto the back straight instead of letting Rea lead onto the straight and drafting pass (the Panigale could easily draft pass last year's Honda). So instead Rea pulled off a draft pass on Davide and Davide tried a crazy, kamikaze, dive pass at the end of the straight and ended up hitting Rea and crashing himself out. That's Davide for you... he's fast but he doesn't seem to think much when he's racing.


I do not think Rea would be as quick on the Ducati as he is on the 10R. I'm sure the 10R is an easier bike to adapt to coming from the Honda than the Panigale is. Rea would of had more to learn and adapt to on the Ducati.

Davies never gave up anything. He had to of had a race strategy and sometimes it's better to not be in the lead at certain parts of the race unless you have the speed to breakaway. I honestly don't think Chaz was always trying to pass on the straight and I don't think he wanted Rea to know he COULD pass on the straight until it was too late. Chaz played that card and passed on the straight on lap 19 (race 2), but Rea wasn't going down easy and passed him right back.

Yes, van der Mark on the Honda led for a few laps, but Rea, Haslam, and Davies and no problem pushing him back to 4th when they had enough. The Evo rules seem to have really leveled the field as far as the bikes are concerned and now it's up to the riders.
 
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Eleven 99 said:
Actually I think Chaz is a very good rider for Ducati. He is a thinking racer and is more consistent than Davide. I remember at Aragon last year Davide and Rea were battling on the final lap. Rea's Honda wasn't all that quick, but Davide decided to pass Rea going onto the back straight instead of letting Rea lead onto the straight and drafting pass (the Panigale could easily draft pass last year's Honda). So instead Rea pulled off a draft pass on Davide and Davide tried a crazy, kamikaze, dive pass at the end of the straight and ended up hitting Rea and crashing himself out. That's Davide for you... he's fast but he doesn't seem to think much when he's racing.


I do not think Rea would be as quick on the Ducati as he is on the 10R. I'm sure the 10R is an easier bike to adapt to coming from the Honda than the Panigale is. Rea would of had more to learn and adapt to on the Ducati.

Davies never gave up anything. He had to of had a race strategy and sometimes it's better to not be in the lead at certain parts of the race unless you have the speed to breakaway. I honestly don't think Chaz was always trying to pass on the straight and I don't think he wanted Rea to know he COULD pass on the straight until it was too late. Chaz played that card and passed on the straight on lap 19 (race 2), but Rea wasn't going down easy and passed him right back.

Yes, van der Mark on the Honda led for a few laps, but Rea, Haslam, and Davies and no problem pushing him back to 4th when they had enough. The Evo rules seem to have really leveled the field as far as the bikes are concerned and now it's up to the riders.
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interesting points you have made. davies is much different than davide. however i disagree with you as i think chaz has no real heart. if you read (and i am sure most havnt here) stoners book it outlines chaz attitude. my take is he doesnt give 100%. stoner use to smoke him all the time as kids.

just my opinion.

as i said these were my observations. it was 1 race. i loved seeing bayliss out there. i was excited that the panigale was close but thats what i saw. i am not a fan of JR.

good discussion guys
 
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mark419ny said:
interesting points you have made. davies is much different than davide. however i disagree with you as i think chaz has no real heart. if you read (and i am sure most havnt here) stoners book it outlines chaz attitude. my take is he doesnt give 100%. stoner use to smoke him all the time as kids.

just my opinion.

as i said these were my observations. it was 1 race. i loved seeing bayliss out there. i was excited that the panigale was close but thats what i saw. i am not a fan of JR.

good discussion guys
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I haven't read Stoner's book yet, but Chaz & Stoner are talked about in Rossi's book. I thought Chaz & Stoner were really good friends since they both struggled together when they started racing. I guess they aren't friends anymore if Stoner would go on record saying Chaz has no heart.
 
Davies post race comments if it matters to anyone. Seems like his gameplan was to sit behind him and then get in front at the end and it simply didn't pan out how he wanted to. Perhaps next time he will push past a little sooner and see what happens.

"I'm finally on the podium at Phillip Island, and twice over - having tried every year to get here, I've finally done it. I would have liked to be able to do something more but it wasn't possible, I was just missing a little more drive in the final laps and tried to conserve the tyres as well as I could. I personally have always started the championship a little badly and so this result is extremely important. It confirms that we are starting at a different level with respect to last year, and I was able to stick there with Rea fairly comfortably. We're worked hard this weekend, concentrated on race distance, and it seems to have paid off. I thank my whole team but also all of the technicians back at Borgo Panigale for their hard work over the winter. The results obtained here are a good base on which to build."
 
mark419ny said:
this is not a troll thread. whats your observations? The panigale just doesnt have the drive the aprilia or the kawi have. i doubt they will have a win this season again.
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Anyone of those bikes could have got the win in either race if the bike was down on power it would not be sitting were it was after 22 laps .
What you witnessed was battle of who was the best rider of the day .
 
mark419ny said:
<snip>Let me clear up what i said and i knew someone would bring up time sheets fastest lap etc. However did you watch the race the people saying this? did you see the drive and power of the ape ? how easily it past the 1199 on the inside. Johnny rae really the kawi made him look like the old 21.

how about race 2 troy with the fastest lap at one point so obviously fastest lap or top speed doesnt mean anything. if im last and put in a fastest lap does it really matter answer NO.</snip>
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Actually, data sorta means a lot... :rolleyes: If Chaz was hitting 319-320 on the straights and no one but the Apes was higher, and them only by a whisker, then power wasn't much of a problem. You just don't get those numbers without lots of grunt.

Chaz' problem was clearly drive off the corners, which you could see both from the gaps opening in the onboard videos and from the bike's instability off the corners. That meant he was getting gapped in the first part of the straights, so all he could do was catch back up in the draft. If he'd been holding the wheel of the bike in front better off the corners then he would've been in position to draft by on the long end or at least try outbraking into the corners, which he's quite good at.

TB did indeed have FL for a bit, and a solid one at that, only .5 off the FL for the entire race. But of course Troy didn't maintain that pace, and Chaz did; which is why Chaz was only a couple tenths back at the end, not to mention leading on the next to last lap. You just don't end up with competitive top speed, race fast lap, and being right in the mix at the end if your bike is missing much in any area. Unless of course the rider is head and shoulders better than all the others, which I gather is not your opinion... ;)

Ducati do still have a bit of ground to make up I'd agree, but it's a tiny bit compared to past years. The 2015 rules have largely leveled the field, as intended.
 
I honestly think it's that damn swingarm. Can they use a carbon swingarm in WSBK? Or does it have to be metal? I know they have tried just about everything else design-wise back there in previous seasons. This based upon my armchair motorcycle/suspension thoughts after not staying the night in a Holiday Inn.
 
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Have wondered the same about the SSSA on numerous occasions. Fellow blasphemers... ;)

Put my geek hat on for a second and ran the numbers on race 2. Ignoring the first lap but including all 21 of the rest, Chaz' average lap was about .01 faster than Rea's, with a lower std. dev so .01 per lap more consistent as well. Lost half a second on lap one and ended up well under that behind at the end. He was .02 sec slower than Haslam's average lap, but again he was more consistent by about .02. Funnily enough, the Pani had the highest average top speed of the lot by about .2kph at 313.3, with Haslam's Aprilia the lowest at 311.1.

In other words, damned close racing!
 
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Being as the swingarm is on the left side(looking from the rear) doesn't that mean it stresses the tire on that side more? If so that side of the tire, the exact side Davies couldn't get full usage of on the last turn would explain that or imply that Ducati needs to think about a normal(non SSSA) for the race bike, unless I am way off there.
 
I wonder if the rules would even allow Ducati to use double-sided swingarm if the road bike has a single-sided.
 
Kinda, my suspension guy could explain this way better than me from a technical standpoint, but the main thing is a SSSA flexes in call kinds of funky ways as compared to a dual sided swingarm. It also does this at the exact moment you don't want it to (corner exit where forces transmitted are high) and causes issues with drive grip and tire life.

No big deal for us non-WSBK riders out there, but there is a reason why you don't see them on GP bikes. Also explains why Pierobon went to the effort of designing a DSSA for the Panigale. Way back during 1098 development it was pretty widely known that Bayliss was lapping the mules around a second a lap faster with a DSSA that was being tested, but the marketing side of the company shot that one down after the 999 backlash.

That said you can do some amazing things with carbon fiber, BST developed a carbon fiber swingarm for the 1198 series. Ducati was at one point using one for Moto GP, so I wonder if the tricky flex nuances could be engineered out with a different material? They aren't allowed to deviate from stock appearance in WSBK unfortunately.
 
Eleven 99 said:
I wonder if the rules would even allow Ducati to use double-sided swingarm if the road bike has a single-sided.
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Nope, therein lays the dillema.

Again, I'm just throwing hypotheticals out there based on very limited knowledge of how this stuff works. But the one complaint you hear consistently is drive grip and tire life at the rear, and that is something I know is a drawback to a SSSA when you get into the horsepower levels they are running.
 
While they have to use a SSSA there is nothing saying it can't be made of CF or Ti or a combo of both to prevent massive flex. In aviation we use CF where we need flex but ti when we need rigidity and a mix for both. I assume it could be applied here to remedy that.

Do they use Mag or CF wheels on the SBK?
 
b9009b said:
While they have to use a SSSA there is nothing saying it can't be made of CF or Ti or a combo of both to prevent massive flex. In aviation we use CF where we need flex but ti when we need rigidity and a mix for both. I assume it could be applied here to remedy that.

Do they use Mag or CF wheels on the SBK?
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They changed the rules to only aluminium wheels after this little disaster a few years ago. Also reduced costs a bit, though I suspect that was subsequently eaten up as the manufactures likely went crazy trying to keep the performance the same as the mag ones they were using before.

Maxime-Berger-Supersonic-Ducati.jpg
 
its the shift in weight they made to the Panigale. I don't think it has to do with SSSA. They need to shift some of the weigh the weight back period. I notice it when I first bought this bike in 2012. From my understanding they have been trying to shift some of the weight back on their race bikes. Although a heavier DSSA may be the answer.
 
Shaka - Damn I cant imagine that went well for that guy.

Scrapper - I would think that would make rear tire wear worse?
 
mark419ny said:
PS anybody hear if troy will make another race. wish they showed a little more of him or had an interview or something. if there was an interview can somebody post it
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On our local coverage they interviewed Bayliss after both races, he said that he was enjoying running with the leaders but blistered his tyres after about 8 laps, softened the rear suspension for the second race to try and improve drive out of the corners but had the same problem, came in to change tyres on the second race to prove to himself that he could run the lap times of the leaders.

Didn't discount running another round but said that he had given his leathers back to the team boss so wasn't expecting to go around again, would be good to see him have a little time to setup the bike for his style though, his comment was that the younger riders seem to be getting further off the bike than he did and would have to look at possibly adjusting his style.
 
b9009b said:
Shaka - Damn I cant imagine that went well for that guy.

Scrapper - I would think that would make rear tire wear worse?
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Didn't end that bad just a lowside and the guy got up. Was pretty crazy since it happened right when the live feed was showing him.

Scrapper is right, more weight back there would help a ton if kept low enough. Problem is the bike is packaged really tight as it is. The tank runs all the way under the seat now on the WSBK's, and they took the electronics out of the nose and stuck them on top of the tank to move it back a bit.

Ljuice26 said:
The tank extension is one thing ducati is using to move the rider back on the bike.
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Yup, even the Superstock bikes are running a tank extension since they can't use the fuel tank the WSBK guys are that moves the fuel back under the rider. MV was running a similar setup on their F3's in WSS this weekend. Didn't see that on thier bikes last year.

All things considered, they still are right there for some wins this year. It's all the little things that ad up at this point. If you look at any of the competitors bikes, they are doing the same things to try and move weight around.
 
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b9009b said:
Shaka - Damn I cant imagine that went well for that guy.

Scrapper - I would think that would make rear tire wear worse?
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No. believe it or not more traction will save the tire wear. Less sliding around and less wheel spin. Think of less weight is like doing burn outs with these powerful motors. however you will sacrifice some handling which the panigale has a lot of room to play with.
 

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