Yet another shootout

kismetcapitan · Jul 12, 2015

A lot of people hop on Ducatis for the first time after riding UJMs for years, and hate it. Ducatis require a different approach them, and it takes a bit of time to get used to it. There's lots more torque, but being in the right gear is oftentimes important, and the right gear is quite different from the right gear on a 600.

Anyways, as most of us know, if you know how to ride a Ducati twin, it rewards you with grins at a minimum, and even WSBK podiums if you happen to be a pro.

Different Ducatis also require different approaches. The wife's 796 Monster is the air-cooled "Harley" of the bunch. It's the loudest, and everything happens off of idle up to 8000rpm when the party is over.

Testastretta 11 motors are the tamest Ducatis ever. I even prefer it over the new variable valve motor, but I've only test ridden that bike, not lived with it.

And as we all know, the Superquadro is no Testastretta Evoluzione. I like to think of the 1198 as the last traditional Ducati superbike. The 1299 makes more torque, but if a rider were to test an 1198 and 1299 without knowing a thing about Ducatis, he would probably say the 1198 has more torque.

kismetcapitan · Jul 12, 2015

I have a feeling that the RSV4 RR/RFs are going to be track monsters.

The new R1 is achieving a lot of the potential that the first crossplane had, but never delivered on. And the R1M uses the exact same suspension as the 1299S (Ohlins is owned by Yamaha). The GPS-based app that comes with the R1M is straight up MotoGP technology, although I think that even casual trackday riders won't be able to make much of it.

IMHO, the two all-time greatest 4-cylinder bikes, in terms of visceral sound, are the Yamaha crossplane R1 and the Desmosedici RR. They both happen to have the same cylinder firing order, not surprisingly.

The ZX-10R is the poor man's S1000RR. Throw $50k in chassis upgrades to it, put Jonny Rea in the saddle, and no one can touch you. But it's aging quickly. If Kawasaki blew all their development money on the H2 and don't have an improved ZX-10R waiting in the wings, they may have blundered.

And the S1000RR continues to be the cruise missile with typical BMW luxury appointments. And Marco Melandri almost won the 2012 WSBK championship on one, until he completely choked. Does everything with great efficiency and competence. And it got boring.

What on earth is Honda and Suzuki doing with their superbikes, or more accurately, why aren't they doing anything. It's 2015 and they're offering dressed up 2008 models....

fzr100098 · Jul 12, 2015

I have to believe a new ZX-10 is coming soon, hopefully next year. The H2 is a totally different market/customer

mark419ny · Jul 12, 2015

kismetcapitan said:
have fun finding parts when your RSV4 motor suddenly lunches itself....

there's a reason why Aprilia's are cheaper. spend less for parts and labor, get a bike at a more competitive price.

You should ride more, and read less reviews and "test numbers". 107lb/ft torque in real life is a lot different than reading about it in some "test".

come on man he doesn't like the duc who cares. i know plenty of people with rsv4s and they love them did he hit a nerve by giving an opinion different than yours.

i have both bikes the hp4 is a better bike doesn't mean i don't like the ducati any less.

fzr100098 · Jul 12, 2015

It's not really that, it's that secretly a geek's posts are just ......... He says the same thing over and over that the Ducati is down on power, but properly dyno'd they're producing about 185 rwhp so he's simply wrong. Furthermore he previously admitted he can barely ride and this would be his first bike (!) Anyone prattling on about how any of these bikes don't have enough power clearly hasn't ridden any of them.

lamb00j · Jul 13, 2015

mark419ny said:
i own both and there are no brakes better than the ducati period. anyway que the test mean nothing and they don't but wouldn't you like to at least see ducati win one.

This right here is quite a quote... I dont know if you recall, Mark419ny was very very very pro S1000RR and would speak volumes (as another rider does on here about the R1) and he gave the panigale some props on better brakes... this is amazing.

Also, Mark419ny, dont you have the HP4 version?

love2ride · Jul 13, 2015

fzr100098 said:
It's not really that, it's that secretly a geek's posts are just ......... He says the same thing over and over that the Ducati is down on power, but properly dyno'd they're producing about 185 rwhp so he's simply wrong. Furthermore he previously admitted he can barely ride and this would be his first bike (!) Anyone prattling on about how any of these bikes don't have enough power clearly hasn't ridden any of them.

Yep exactly. He's the same ..... who asked if he could get a 1299 as his first bike and use it in rain mode a couple of months back.

I remember it distinctly because he's from the same town as I am. I called him an ..... then and I'm calling him an ..... now.

shakazulu12 · Jul 13, 2015

fzr100098 said:
I have to believe a new ZX-10 is coming soon, hopefully next year. The H2 is a totally different market/customer

It is. Although their own statement was it was more of a refinement to the current model. Some chassis, engine and electronics changes. They have to have switched to RBW before 2017 to comply with WSBK rules. I'll find the link somewhere where it was discussed. Edit: partial text from the interview here. http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2015/Speedweekcom+A+new+Kawasaki+ZX10R+for+2016

Incidently, I just found out the photoshoot I'm doing this week involves me on a 1299. So I'll finally be able to add to the impressions people have posted.

fzr100098 · Jul 13, 2015

Hmm, I was hoping for "ground up" reboot, doesn't sound like that will happen

I'd love to see 2015 ZX-10 sales numbers, it must be pitiful. Winning WSBK is great but it doesn't always translate to sales

mark419ny · Jul 13, 2015

lamb00j said:
This right here is quite a quote... I dont know if you recall, Mark419ny was very very very pro S1000RR and would speak volumes (as another rider does on here about the R1) and he gave the panigale some props on better brakes... this is amazing.

Also, Mark419ny, dont you have the HP4 version?

yes i have an hp4 competition and you can't argue facts. the brakes on the duc are second to none.

Buliwyf · Jul 13, 2015

fzr100098 said:
Hmm, I was hoping for "ground up" reboot, doesn't sound like that will happen

I'd love to see 2015 ZX-10 sales numbers, it must be pitiful. Winning WSBK is great but it doesn't always translate to sales

The Zx10 looks like a snowmobile with a tuba poking out of the right side fairing. That ain't going to sell.

I don't put much stock in shootouts. I can ride my favorite of the 3 bikes anytime II want to and pick my own favorite. No 18 year old moto journalist wannabe is going to sway me much.

I respect Don and Kent though. Maybe the opinions of the pro racers testing as well.

Chaotic · Jul 14, 2015

kismetcapitan said:
all of these tests come up with different conclusions. so what does that mean?

people should buy which bikes works for THEM. That is the ONLY measure of what is "best" or "ultimate".

I am personally faster on a Ducati than any other make of bike. I just intuitively mesh well with powerful twins in lightweight packages. It means jack squat if, say, Max Biaggi can go faster on a stock Aprilia than a stock Ducati - he ain't me, and MY bike is for ME.

constantly badgering people about what you think is "the best" or "the ultimate" is nothing more than willy waving. I should think that on a 1299 owners board, we're far past that, and I sincerely hope the person who keeps bringing it up will just let it go.

This is probably the best post i have seen in any of these shootout threads.

It is ridiculous for people to base their decisions on the opinions of others, and more importantly, the lap times of others. Especially when the vast majority of this board doesnt even race. Where is the logic in buying one street bike over another because a WSBK racer went 1sec faster on that particular bike? That is some of the silliest .... i have ever heard.

And even if somebody does race, that person has to honestly ask/answer themselves..."have I won anything on my current bike?"..."am I consistently running Expert podium lap times?"..."how far am I off the lap record?"...."am i riding consistent enough that all of my laps are within 0.7-1.0sec of each other?".

If those questions are answered honestly, i think most individuals would realize the bike is the least of their worries. And they won't be any faster on a 2015 Superbike than they would be on a 2008 R6. So making a decision based upon spec sheets and lap times of others is absurd.

If the guys on the Expert Podiums are running 1:30's, and an individual is running 1:35's, the bike is not the issue. And a new bike won't gain them 5 seconds. And their choice of one bike over the other will not make a difference either. What they need is practice and coaching.

Chaotic · Jul 14, 2015

Macattack said:
View attachment 14481

wtf is up with those lap times .

a really fast lap at button willow is mid 140's

who are these guys? if they ran a shortened track then what the hell does that prove .

A 600 would probably have won this shootout. as said before
magazine shootouts are for squids .

ttkarp said:
As long as all bikes ran on the same track I guess I don't see your point?

If the testers are running laps that are 10-15 seconds off the lap record, how can they truly ascertain how good the bike is? THEY are the problem, not the bike.

Track based reviews and lap times from reporters who would struggle to be mid-pack in the Advanced Track Day group mean nothing, at least to me.

Chaotic · Jul 14, 2015

SecretlyaFish said:
Pretty glad I wasnt one of the few that hopped on the bandwagon and bought one early before all these tests were out. What a joke. Ducati is making over 30 less hp in most cases than what they advertise, even the lower hp advertised rsv4 is making more hp than the 1299. Motorcycle.com did a test on the roll ons and the Ducati was still beat by heavier bikes with less torque.

Ducati is still fast, and still looks good, but damn, seems like they really don't care about having the fastest bike. RSV4 looks just as good, has better graphics and sounds way better than the Duc, and its cheaper. Glad these guys are saving me thousands. Ducati just can't make a bike that truly competes with the competition. They keep increasing the displacement of the twin but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I mean, it isn't even the fastest around the track, despite being the most expensive and despite being one of the most hardcore street bikes you can get. What honestly is the point of making all these sacrifices if it can't excel in any one thing. Has the most torque but that didn't help it in the roll on test. Its the lightest but it isn't the fastest and when compared back to back with all the other bikes, people don't like it.

So disappointed with all the reviews I've read. I'm pretty sure Ducati should have stuck with the 195 number, it doesn't make 10 more.

Oh man. I don't even know where to start.

Eh, .... it.

jjsC6 · Jul 14, 2015

I'd love to see how differently people on this thread would be responding if the Ducati was picked as the favorite. Suddenly the opinions of the testers would be applauded by everyone on this forum but not so much on the BMW forum

jjsC6 · Jul 14, 2015

SecretlyaFish said:
Pretty glad I wasnt one of the few that hopped on the bandwagon and bought one early before all these tests were out. What a joke. Ducati is making over 30 less hp in most cases than what they advertise, even the lower hp advertised rsv4 is making more hp than the 1299. Motorcycle.com did a test on the roll ons and the Ducati was still beat by heavier bikes with less torque.

Ducati is still fast, and still looks good, but damn, seems like they really don't care about having the fastest bike. RSV4 looks just as good, has better graphics and sounds way better than the Duc, and its cheaper. Glad these guys are saving me thousands. Ducati just can't make a bike that truly competes with the competition. They keep increasing the displacement of the twin but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I mean, it isn't even the fastest around the track, despite being the most expensive and despite being one of the most hardcore street bikes you can get. What honestly is the point of making all these sacrifices if it can't excel in any one thing. Has the most torque but that didn't help it in the roll on test. Its the lightest but it isn't the fastest and when compared back to back with all the other bikes, people don't like it.

So disappointed with all the reviews I've read. I'm pretty sure Ducati should have stuck with the 195 number, it doesn't make 10 more.

I'm glad Ducati saved you money. But they didn't save you time, you still have plenty of that to hang out here on this forum and tell us how bad our choice of bikes is.

Chaotic · Jul 14, 2015

jjsC6 said:
I'd love to see how differently people on this thread would be responding if the Ducati was picked as the favorite. Suddenly the opinions of the testers would be applauded by everyone on this forum but not so much on the BMW forum

I can't speak for the others, but my opinion of the reviews wouldnt change regardless of who won.

I have watched too many review videos and seen the test riders blowing apex's, getting on the throttle way too late, rarely making the front end dive under braking, and rarely achieving more than 45deg of lean angle. Then they go on talking about how one bike is better/faster than another.

jjsC6 · Jul 14, 2015

Chaotic said:
I can't speak for the others, but my opinion of the reviews wouldnt change regardless of who won.

I have watched too many review videos and seen the test riders blowing apex's, getting on the throttle way too late, rarely making the front end dive under braking, and rarely achieving more than 45deg of lean angle. Then they go on talking about how one bike is better/faster than another.

Don't spoil my fun, you know there is truth to what I said

.

I'll bet there is a thread on the R1 and S1000RR forum with a totally different spin on the results, but I have enough forums to keep up with of vehicles I either own, have owned, or am thinking of owning to check in on those

Chaotic · Jul 14, 2015

Haha no doubt.

I am also a member of an R1 forum, R6 forum, Triumph 675 forum, BMW forum, Aprilia forum, Kawi forum and Gixxer forum (Moderator on that one). Not to mention a couple of other non-brand-specific forums.

The opinions on these reviews vary greatly depending on who is reading them and how good they want their personal bike to seem.

ASM · Jul 14, 2015

jjsC6 said:
I'd love to see how differently people on this thread would be responding if the Ducati was picked as the favorite. Suddenly the opinions of the testers would be applauded by everyone on this forum but not so much on the BMW forum

Pretty much the state of our society these days....everybody wants to be validated in whatever they do. Best bike, best car, best wife/girlfriend...

Truth of the story simply is that reviews don't really provide much of a real value for a person deciding on the bike. As being correctly pointed out before...you are not the tester, whether it is Rossie, Marquez or a simple guy at a magazine who likes to ride sport bikes.

You can get some basic characteristics and differentiators between the individual bikes from the same tester riding them back to back but that's about it. You want to decide which one to get? Go look at them, sit on them, and if you can, take each out for a ride...

At the end of the day...no matter what brand you are on...it's not a status symbol, it simply is a motorcycle...nothing more, nothing less...

Yet another shootout

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