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From what I've been told, the 2015 R engine has some RS components that were not in the SL engine. I'll try and find the print.
You 2015 "R" owners have a weapon on your hands..
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From what I've been told, the 2015 R engine has some RS components that were not in the SL engine. I'll try and find the print.
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G'day buttnekid, I know you're after some real world comparison and I can't provide that, but I also know you're up against a deadline to make your choice. I went through the same dilemma ref choosing between the 1299 S or Panigale R (2015). I ended up choosing the 1299 S (so I'm already biased, but I thought I'd share with you my analysis of the power curves. I know, I know, power curves are not as important as some believe them to be, and a person's perception of power delivery is also affected by lots of things (speed, acceleration, noise, etc.), but when you're sitting at the bottom of the world waiting for a bike there's sometimes not much else to go on.
All figures I've used are based on Ducati published data (so I assume there is reasonable relative consistency), but I had to use some "licence" at very near redline because of lacking data. And I'm including 1199 and 1199 R figures here for the potential interest of others. I'm not going to complicate things with analysis of weight difference of the bikes.
So, the 1st curve comparison is Power vs RPM for 1199, 1199 R, 1299 and Panigale R (2015). It's immediately obvious that the 1299 makes more power at lower RPM. This is the curve that most people look at, but it doesn't tell the whole story and TBH I don't pay much attention to it (the curve of Torque vs RPM is even less relevant IMHO).
The 2nd curve comparison is Power vs % RPM for 1199, 1199 R, 1299 and Panigale R (2015). The % RPM values are normalised to each bike engine's redline RPM. I won't comment on this one either. Instead, I'll split it into 2 sections: one for the higher RPM band and one for the lower.
The 3rd curve comparison is the same as the 2nd except that it's only looking at % RPM above ~65%. Why? Because, all the Panigales have the same relative gear ratios and the largest % change in ratio is 31.6%(between 1st and 2nd gears). So, changing gear at near redline in 1st gear will drop the engine speed back to ~65% of redline RPM. So, this curve shows the relative power of each bike when ridden hard and well. It clearly shows the advantage that the Panigale R (2015) should have on the track (noting that this curve ignores start line launch).
The 4th curve comparison is the same as the 2nd/3rd except that it shows % RPM below ~65%. Why? Because, for street riding you can often find yourself in the "wrong gear" (for various reasons), and for a lot of folk there is some reluctance to click down the gears to get the engine into its proper operating zone prior to accelerating. Instead, there's a tendency to just apply WOT and wait (impatiently). This curve shows some advantage for the 1299 when operating outside of the engine's proper operating zone.
The 5th curve comparison shows Power vs Bike Speed, with the speed normalised with respect to the Panigale R (2015). So, this curve shows the power for any speed and chosen gear combination, and it also takes account of different final drive ratios of the various bikes (15/39 for the 1199 and 1299, and 15/41 for the 1199 R and Panigale R (2015)). It really tells the story of the typical roll-on comparison scenario (for those interested in that kinda thing), and since bike speed when initially applying WOT is often determined by the previous corner (and that would be relatively similar for all these bikes) this curve can be used to say something about relative acceleration out of a given corner. What's most obvious here is that 1299 holds some advantage from 30% to 60%, then there's not much difference between 1199 R, 1299 and Panigale R (2015) from 60% to 70%, from 70% to 90% it's line-ball between 1299 and Panigale R (2015), and above 90% it's Panigale R (2015) all the way.
Buttnekid, as I said, I ended up choosing the 1299 S, but I hope you might get something out of all that.
P.S. As I re-read the above I realize I'm going stir-crazy waiting here these final few days - apologies for the above to anyone who is actually riding/enjoying their bike.
Thanks for taking the time to put this all together. It confirms what I've been thinking. The Panigale R will be a better bike for racin becuase of theweght difference, but in the higher RPMs (Which is where the bike lives on the track) has some big advantages. And think, the other bikes the R will be up against are not going to put out what the 1299 is putting out.
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fzr100098
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LOL - exactly. I'm quite sure basically no one on this forum could go any faster on an R vs S (maybe even the Base). All of them are incredibly good. Rider skill is the limiting factor for 99% of riders of these machines.
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Trouble is, thats just calculators, not real world performance.
After taking my R out and not being overlooked with running in revs etc. it's now quite clear that the R is all about top end and high revs.
With all due respect, while the 1299 develops peak power at 10500 rpm, the R at 11500, it doesn't give you 0 -60 times (which on a bike doesn't really mean much!), 60 - 100 time etc. The R engine spools up seriously quickly, like you won't believe. While you are developing peak power in 2nd for example, I've already changed gear into 3rd. You can't even understand unless you ride one.
Top gear roll on.......... OMFG!!!
These things need to go head to head........ so also biased, but my money is on the R
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fzr100098
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And again, head to head with what rider? Head to head with Chaz, R wins - head to head with average track day rider, not much in it. I'd put money on it.
1/4 mile times and roll on times would be very similar, 1299 might even win
1/4 mile times and roll on times would be very similar, 1299 might even win
..i certainly can agree with that - there is more to the overall ownership factor however....not to mention which bike you prefer to ride....and with Ducati, while you don't need the different brand (like cars McLaren/ferrari etc) Ducati manages this with different models...in the end it comes down to the bike that gives you what you want....for those that just need "top shelf"....they get to say "i'm riding THIS, while you're riding THAT"
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Er, no...... I was talking myself, R vs S. A lap with one, then the other.
Even under lab conditions, no.
Remember, how could Ducati sell an R without it being better than the 1299 S? They wouldn't, it's marketing suicide. How can you sell a £29,000 motorcycle that then gets beaten by a £20,000 machine? How is it justified? They just wouldn't even try it, they would never sell an R! It would be laughed at.
The R is the flagship for a reason, the extra cash has to be and is, justified.......
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fzr100098
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"Better" is subject to definition. The R has a high dollar engine with more exotic materials among other things - "better" by any engineering definition - but that doesn't necessarily translate to faster lap times in the hands of the average track day rider. How many Porsche GT3 owners can exploit the full capabilities of those cars at the track? The skill of the driver plays a huge role, and even more so in the case of motorcycles, where skill levels of top level riders is truly night and day removed from average guys (as in multiple seconds difference per lap). Chaz could blow most riders off the track on a Suzuki Bandit.
Like the GT3, most owners of the R have dispoable income, but not necessarily the youth or talent to go with it. Such is the irony of life - money can't buy everything, and age often erodes skill quickly.
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Let me just correct you on that FZR, it's not skill that is eroded, it is reaction time, things slow down a little as you age, skill levels are still there, I've seen some older guys do amazing things on bikes, just not quite as fast around a track as they once were.
fzr100098
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Good point - I know a 66 year old who still tracks his R. His talent is still there, and he spent many years refining it, but there is still no replacement for youth. Notice how the world champs like Casey Stoner and Marquez almost always started out extremely young, like 8-10 years old or something?
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I believe Nicky Hayden was riding at 3 years old and racing at 5!
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Very true, comp racing is a young mans game, street riding takes the experience that comes with a few years under the belt, very rarely you see an older rider wedged under the front of a car, that is normally a young mans game as well.
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I'm 53 years old and faster then I ever was, due to experience and tons of training and track time, HOWEVER... I also am not prepared to push as hard as I did when I was younger, if I was, I would be faster still.
At some point, you decide that avoiding major injuries are more important than cutting the fastest lap in the race group at a track day. Now, if I go back to racing for real, I may have to push harder than I would like and that is why I am resisting the urge to get back into racing.
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I agree totally Shilling, at some point you realize that it isn't worth the pain, older guys take longer to heal as well. I played a little pro football as a younger guy and played in a masters tournament last year, the skills on display there were a joy to watch albeit in slow motion, also couldn't walk for week. I did manage to drink a lot of beer though.
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