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Funny this. If you think that you can get an accurate oil level with in 15 minutes clearly you do not understand the layout of the oil system and the oil return paths.
23 V4R Loosing Oil…… Some Oil Found in Airbox
- Thread starter KA77
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Since you asked. I avoid extremely technical answers, because most people don't really want this level of detail. Most people want a simple answer to a complicate subject. I'm not referring to you. What follows is the technical answer to your question, and the original question that started this discussion.
While it’s widely known that oil-based lubricants are less viscous at higher temperatures and more viscous at lower temperatures, calculating a precise viscosity presents a formidable challenge. Lubricant viscosity, temperature and operating conditions all interact in complex ways, some of which are poorly understood. For example, thicker lubricant films keep contacting parts well separated, but they also can increase friction and drag. Which increases temperature at the contact area. Which thins the lubricant film. Another factor in high performance motorcycle engines is the use of straight cut gears and timing chains. These mechanical forces are well known for quickly degrading the molecular polymers required for multi viscosity lubricants. One method of determining the speed of this degradation is the ASTM D341 test. D341 uses the "Walther equation" to calculate the degradation of oil viscosity. ASTM D2270 test the VI (viscosity index). This test method was established over 90 years ago. ASTM D2270 indicates the degree to which an oil’s viscosity changes (reverts to the mean) over a range of temperatures. For example, the oil might start out as 10W/60. But depending on the chemical design and the quality of the chemicals, the viscosity quickly shears down to 30W in as little as 500 miles. Quality matters. The “VI” value found on the oil’s Product Data Sheet (PDS) indicates how well the oil can maintain its original viscosity range.
The properties of long-chain polymer additives can affect shear thinning. The shear rate at which thinning begins is inversely proportional to a molecule's size. Longer polymer molecules (10w/60) start to shear the quickest. Shear rates are significant for oils that contain polymers because shear stretches and breaks the polymer chains.
The higher the “VI”, the better the oil. The very best oils have a VI of approximately 185 to 190.
If you really want to read pier reviewed publications about lubrication, see "Tribology Letters" at springer.com. This is the industry standard devoted to the development of the science of tribology and its applications. This is where actual Petroleum Engineers focus on publishing high-quality papers at the forefront of tribological science, that address the fundamentals of friction, lubrication, wear, and adhesion. The journal facilitates communication and exchange of seminal ideas among thousands of pier reviewed practitioners engaged worldwide in the pursuit of tribology-based science and technology. This is where you’ll find articles published by Mr 500hp busa.
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I’ve not had chance to anything about it tbh, works been crazy. Will give MR a tinkle in the next couple days and see what can be arranged
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I have to believe a bunch of us understand this. I've run synthetic oils in pretty much everything since I witnessed a change in oil from castrol to redline on an about 600 hp na smallblock chevy being dyno'd years ago. The switch to Redline netted over 3%. I think the last pull was 625ish. As you say both shear forces in the hydrodynamic lubrication process and the gearbox shorten the molecular chain length. And that 15,000 rpm redline doesn't help anything with the angular velocity at the bearing /journal interface being so high. Me I just use mobil in everything and on the bikes frequent changes.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s aeration issues with these engines
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I actually think that is not the case. These have well designed scavenging and good windage control. That being said do not overfill these, if the oil level is high enough that it's above the cast windage wrap around the crank they will totally froth the oil.
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I just wish i had good feeling about 300V...used and replaced every 1500-2500mi and before each track day...still toasted two motors...
the shell oil just turns nasty BLACK so quickly...really loved the green and clean of Motul...
JAG
the shell oil just turns nasty BLACK so quickly...really loved the green and clean of Motul...
JAG
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Motul turns nasty black after 6-8 days on track easily
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I never did that many track days on one oil fill. But 2 track days + 1500miles street...was still very green and clean...
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Can’t pay his taxes or afford doing oil changes… Not surprised one of his motors blew
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Aeration would explain all the problems w oil in the airbox
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I actually think it's due to the poor design of the oil separator. When I sealed my airbox entry on the clowncar the problem showed up. So I enabled the airbox to have greater vacuum and now it pulls a little oil in. I'm thinking about modifying the oil separator but the SF's don't have the hole thru the front frame so it's real hard to get to. I think this is one of those things that may have been addressed with the 25's so I'll wait until the 25 parts diagrams are up to see if they up rev'ed the separator. If not I'll modify when I switch motor's in the clowncar.
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Beta testing on customers. Cool. Cool.
Since I own a 23 v4r, and have done a few track days with my third engine, this is my experience. My first engine had a cylinder misfire error within first 150miles of riding and was replaced under warranty.
When my second engine was installed, the airbox was not sealed properly. Airleak testing confirmed this. Due to this, there were dirt going into the airbox which messed up the piston rings. For the third engine, they changed airbox, sealed it and tested it first before installing the third engine, changed the cyclone seperator and pump, and replaced the sprint p08 street filter with BMC. so far completex 3 track days and 1.5k miles on it. Zero issues now.
When my second engine was installed, the airbox was not sealed properly. Airleak testing confirmed this. Due to this, there were dirt going into the airbox which messed up the piston rings. For the third engine, they changed airbox, sealed it and tested it first before installing the third engine, changed the cyclone seperator and pump, and replaced the sprint p08 street filter with BMC. so far completex 3 track days and 1.5k miles on it. Zero issues now.
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Happy days! Glad you're enjoying it
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So I’ve just got back from 3 glorious December days at Portimao. The bike was faultless throughout (accept some handling issues that we are ironing out)
Anyhow, got the bike home and in the garage for a strip down, clean and torque check before it heads to MotoRapido in the new year for annual service. Having stripped the fairings, I have found several apparent leaks on the power plant. Both the cylinder head rocker covers are leaking, which is common I hear and no real issue to sort. What’s more concerning is the fact I’ve now located leaks on the inlet side of both cylinders. It seems like the oil is coming out the flanges between the throttle bodies / air box and where it bolts to the inlet side of each cylinder. There are multiple leaks it seems, but it’s hard to see clearly as they are right in the guts of the engine. MR are aware and are going to sort when it’s in for service.
Anyhow, got the bike home and in the garage for a strip down, clean and torque check before it heads to MotoRapido in the new year for annual service. Having stripped the fairings, I have found several apparent leaks on the power plant. Both the cylinder head rocker covers are leaking, which is common I hear and no real issue to sort. What’s more concerning is the fact I’ve now located leaks on the inlet side of both cylinders. It seems like the oil is coming out the flanges between the throttle bodies / air box and where it bolts to the inlet side of each cylinder. There are multiple leaks it seems, but it’s hard to see clearly as they are right in the guts of the engine. MR are aware and are going to sort when it’s in for service.
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Seems to be from around the same place (rear-left corner area of rear cylinders) that mine went.
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On the rear cylinder rocker cover ? Yes, so it seems. Also leaks on the front cylinder bank rocker cover and around the inlet flanges of both banks of cylinders, where the air box bolts to the heads.
And to think that my local dealer couldn’t be bothered to investigate properly, even after I told them its using oil and sent them images showing oil in the air box.
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It’s quite bad that they were prepared to let it continue.
I was at the track when mine happened and I sent pictures to my local dealer and the dealer in Germany that I bought the bike from. My local dealer never responded (even though I could see that he had read the message and seen the pictures), whereas the German dealer immediately replied and said do not ride it, get it to them immediately and they will investigate. They told me that they had seen this before and so I guess they pretty much knew what the problem was and what needed to be done as soon as they saw the pictures. I went directly from the track to the dealer and they sorted it within one week under guarantee, which was good considering they had a workshop full of bikes in for service, etc.
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TBF, I have since approached MotoRapido and they have been great, responded to emails quickly, haven’t tried to fob me off with excuses about ‘this bike should use oil’ and have booked me in at short notice to get it looked at. Hopefully it will get resolved quickly in January and be back to me in time for Jerez in early March.
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