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Advice on weight distribution
- Thread starter Gulf Coast
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I was afraid this would happen and I would offer the following.
I have been to many Keith Code schools and have done a fair bit of research on this and after many years I found that we can all be doing the same thing but are describing it in different ways. As an example many people advocate pressing on the outside peg in a turn due to a perception that this improves grip while some have the opinion that the pressing on the outside peg improves your ability to lock on to the bike giving you stability and confidence. For some its easier to think of the pressure on the outside peg and for others it helps to know why it works especially when simply pressing on the peg does not give the anchored feeling.
The same thing happens with the counter steering debate a lot of old school riders doesn't think about counter steering but they do countersteer. Some riders of the actual actions being performed while riding a motorcycle simply because they haven't thought about, discussed or analyzed it in detail.
Often techniques become subconscious and at some point the detail set of actions or mechanics are forgotten to the point that it cannot be explained .
This is why we need teachers who spend the time to analyze the mechanics. The descriptions that will help one student improve may not help the other so sometimes the descriptions are different though the principles may be the same.
BTW I teach Kung Fu/ Tai Chi and I often have to tailor explanations to help different students understand. Many of the principles of Tai Chi apply to motorcycle riding.
I have been to many Keith Code schools and have done a fair bit of research on this and after many years I found that we can all be doing the same thing but are describing it in different ways. As an example many people advocate pressing on the outside peg in a turn due to a perception that this improves grip while some have the opinion that the pressing on the outside peg improves your ability to lock on to the bike giving you stability and confidence. For some its easier to think of the pressure on the outside peg and for others it helps to know why it works especially when simply pressing on the peg does not give the anchored feeling.
The same thing happens with the counter steering debate a lot of old school riders doesn't think about counter steering but they do countersteer. Some riders of the actual actions being performed while riding a motorcycle simply because they haven't thought about, discussed or analyzed it in detail.
Often techniques become subconscious and at some point the detail set of actions or mechanics are forgotten to the point that it cannot be explained .
This is why we need teachers who spend the time to analyze the mechanics. The descriptions that will help one student improve may not help the other so sometimes the descriptions are different though the principles may be the same.
BTW I teach Kung Fu/ Tai Chi and I often have to tailor explanations to help different students understand. Many of the principles of Tai Chi apply to motorcycle riding.
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That is a very interesting video.
I believe this video clearly illustrates the important contibution of counter steering.
That is how I primarily direct my bike when I'm traveling at common street speeds. And counter steering is an important maneuver to initiate high speed cornering on the track. However, counter steer, by itself, may be insuffiecient to maintain faster trajectory through high speed cornering, and may require the contribution of many other factors including body position, trail traking, and throttle maintenance to name a few.
Another observation from the video that you referrence is that the bike does track to one side and the other in response to the rider transitioning his standing weight to either side of the bike.
One may say "what they do works for them," but there are pleanty of examples in professional riding where an exeptional style has worked for them. However, when I hear most of my teachers and the majority of AMA Pro & Moto GP riders are displaying certain techniques, it's probably reasonable for me to use their advice as a foundation for me to develop my own skills.
I believe this video clearly illustrates the important contibution of counter steering.
That is how I primarily direct my bike when I'm traveling at common street speeds. And counter steering is an important maneuver to initiate high speed cornering on the track. However, counter steer, by itself, may be insuffiecient to maintain faster trajectory through high speed cornering, and may require the contribution of many other factors including body position, trail traking, and throttle maintenance to name a few.
Another observation from the video that you referrence is that the bike does track to one side and the other in response to the rider transitioning his standing weight to either side of the bike.
One may say "what they do works for them," but there are pleanty of examples in professional riding where an exeptional style has worked for them. However, when I hear most of my teachers and the majority of AMA Pro & Moto GP riders are displaying certain techniques, it's probably reasonable for me to use their advice as a foundation for me to develop my own skills.
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I agree with you completely. I think that riding a bike can not be broken down into a single maneuver, but is a fluid blending of many techniques. I think that good schools do a good job dissecting out the various components one may use and apply them as training drills. I would be surprised if my teacher concluded a course by saying "now I want you to always ride around all race tracks in 3rd gear without using the breaks."
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There is a lot that herer that is a matter of interpretation and even symantics. I am not a world champ or of the caliber rider that Code is, but I am a coach that does a pretty good job with teaching body position. To those who are relatively new to this, let me simplify things. You need to countersteer hard to turn the bike in to the turn.We call it "banging the bars". It should be a hard deliberate input. This should be done hard enough to put the bike at a lean angle anf trajectory to take you to the apex and beyond. At this point you should get as light on the bars as you can, as any bar input at heavy lean angles can send you sailing without knowing why. The purpose of getting off the bike to to counterbalance the weight and help fight the centrifical force trying to upright the bike. Theoretically the more you get off the bike, the straighter up the bike can remain, allowing faster speeds before rubbing hard parts on the track.Watch rain races and how far they hang off to keep the bike upright. As far as the debate about loading pegs or which side to load, the important thing is to be locked into the bike. You want to be able to hang off the bike with your hands off the bars. Having your knee locked against the tank really makes a difference.
Throttle inputs are a valuable tool mid corner too, especially as a novice or intermediate rider.If you are running wide, roll off the throttle and the bike will drop in. If you turned in too soon, rather than stand the bike back up to correct it, roll on the throttle and let it drive you out.
To those of you already fast, I know this is over simplified, and some of it goes out the window at a race pace, but this works well while learning.
Throttle inputs are a valuable tool mid corner too, especially as a novice or intermediate rider.If you are running wide, roll off the throttle and the bike will drop in. If you turned in too soon, rather than stand the bike back up to correct it, roll on the throttle and let it drive you out.
To those of you already fast, I know this is over simplified, and some of it goes out the window at a race pace, but this works well while learning.
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These are great comments. It's hard to find people who can translate a very complex physical process into words for others to learn from. Probably why you are in a coaching position.
Excellent point but beware some may interpret "banging the bars" in different ways some may interpret this as a punch/... as opposed to a firm, steady push(forward) to get the bike to the desired lean angle as quick as possible.
Point I'm trying to make is that it's best to learn in person to get the correct semantics through dialog and on track observation.
Obviously reading is a good starting point, but beware as having too many different teachers in the beginning you may start to interpret the instructions as conflicting. After achieving some skill and competence you may want to seek out other teachers to get different perspective but this time you'll be armed without enough information to filter the information effectively.
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no such thing as body steering other than the broadest sense of the word, certainly some turning can be done by hanging off the bike but not a substantial degree of control or precision. (sorry keith code graduater here too). Countersteering is what steers the bike. I'm no expert but the Code no bs bike is proof.
THE reason for hanging off the bike in a turn is to reduce the lean angle on the bike in a turn thus allowing you to go faster\
THE reason for hanging off the bike in a turn is to reduce the lean angle on the bike in a turn thus allowing you to go faster\
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this was the biggest eye opener for me at code school. Early on they teach you not to just slowly ease in to a turn, but to snap the bike over, so in an instant the bike is leaned over into the turn. Just to make sure I got the point, Stephanie, my tiny hundred pound australian instruction, gave me a very firm push in the shoulder, to approximate how I should push the bar,
doing this is a huge difference, the bike drops and turns instantly. Something I'm still working hard to perfect.
doing this is a huge difference, the bike drops and turns instantly. Something I'm still working hard to perfect.
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Well thanks for all the replies but it seems there's no one able to give a definitive answer to this question. Myself, I've attended the Yamaha school of champions with Nick Ienatsch and the Kevin Schwanz school but not CSS. I do have his book and twist of the wrist 2 though. I get all the theory, even though I might not be the greatest exponent, but I'm still looking for a technical answer as to whether to load the inside peg as you drive out of the corner or keep the body weight loaded through the outside leg that is locked onto the bike. Guess its just the engineer in me coming out and probably why I'll never drift a bike around Lukey Heights like Mr Stoner!!
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Nick told me to weight the inside peg and leverage the outside peg with my leg against the tank. Use the throttle to stand the bike up coming out. He said the guys who weight the outside pegs have roots in dirt racing. The lot of guys I know in the MRA tell beginners to weight the outside, unless you like to back it in and need to push the bike like that. I'm sure you can imagine the force vectors. If you're an engineer do what makes sense to achieve your most desired effect. I'm faster weighing the inside myself. I also think about why a lot of racers drop their foot when they go in, I imagine they aren't weighting the inside immediately at least. Could be wrong. Also, the fact you may need to bump the bike up with your knee, how can you do that without your inside foot firmly planted?
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I am definitely not qualified to give advice but Lorenzo's foot wave with his outside leg at Phillip island yesterday suggests he doesn't weight the outside peg much at all. Maybe it was just for that turn but it all looked pretty normal until his foot came up while he was still leaned over pretty hard.
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Get your upper torso down (almost laying on the tank) and off to the side of the bike, your head (which is a huge pendulum that really affects your turning) should be about where the mirror would be. The same way surfers and divers do, let your head guide the bike where you want it. Sit back a bit on the bike and lock your outside knee into the tank. Weight the outside peg as this has the effect of pushing down on the rear tire, dont weight the inside peg as this has the effect of pushing the rear out sideways. Try turning your shoulders slightly into the turn, this will help with head positioning. You dont need more than one cheek off the seat either. In MotoGP, Stoner is the master of body positioning and does it right.. Marquez in Moto2 does it really well also. But the key thing is that you need to ride different turns differently, as they are all different. No one body position technique is going to be right for all situations.. After putting this in practice during track days and riding schools, the above is what works for me.
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This is what I always thought was the right thing to do, but the fast guys that I've been around don't do that.
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Just a fine point as I mostly am in sync with the above, but countersteering isn't really what steers the bike. The bike really steers itself through its front end and chassis geometry. What we do with countersteering is mainly initiate lean angle, after which the rake and trail take over to carve the line we need to go around a corner. And it's important to note that when we talk about countersteering mid-corner, that we're talking not so much about actually turning the bars right when we're turning left (though the turn starts that way), but it being more a case of applying pressure on the bars to counteract their geometry-induced angle. When we're leaned over in a left hand corner, the front end is most definitely turned to the left (unless you've got it pitched sideways on dirt). But it'll do that by itself - all we do is tweak the line as needed, mostly by adjusting lean angle with bar pressure which via the front end geometry then steers the bike. I think that's where a lot of the confusion about technique comes from; we're not directly steering the bike like you would turn the wheel in a car, we're indirectly inducing it to steer itself via differential bar pressure and weight distribution. It's a very dynamic process with lots of input variables, and there are different combinations that will give much the same result. You can have ideal form like Stoner, or be all crossed up like Bayliss and still go fast as hell.
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