AR Inconel Install

Beanflicker said:

Surely this indicates all along what AR have said, the test needs to be done with a blown air dyno as per other tuners comments.

And what basis does the dyno tech have for saying the Termis would perform better?

Has he done a side by side comparison? I think not.

An open race system, like AR, needs to flow-in as much as it does out to gain the performance.

Surely AR, with their F1 knowledge are fully aware of this and could if necessary put a bike in a wind tunnel and achieve even more..!

I can see AR walking away from this forum if the schitt slinging starts again.....

And I for one wouldn't blame them.....

GET THE TEST(SET-UP) ON THE DYNO PREVIOUSLY VOLUNTEERED THEN POST RESULTS.

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You might want to change your password. I think AR has hacked your profile.

The fan boy rant is so pathetic!

Beanflicker pull your head in. It's one thing to have an opinion and another to jump on a man who has just spent $4000 plus based on claims which are at best over exaggerated.

WAF I am truly sorry mate I and others were hoping for the best. Sad to see Rich has not replied to your comment.

Consumer affairs would say that you have a reasonable expectation for the product to perform as advertised with respect to expense. The more you spend the higher the expectation of accurate results from the product purchased.

Your first point of call is a written letter to Rich giving him the opportunity to respond and rectify the situation. I don't know how much power or authority they CA have out side the country though. It's worth a phone call to check your rights!

Rich at very least could come to the party and pay for the required dyno time to get his faulty product up to spec or as close to it as possible!

Wow.. Waf..this is indeed very disappointing.. Firstly I would like to thank you for your amazing efforts in trying to get your bike tuned to this pipe... I think you have gone above and beyond what I and probably what most buyers would have done...

Ok.. It appears that despite these efforts... and AR's continuing attempts to have you try further things.. that this pipe is unable to live up to the hype that was given it by the seller... in terms of numbers if not looks and sound.. Not sure why this would be the case and I would like to think the AR numbers were not finessed..but anyhow given the failure of the pipe to perform and AR's insistence that they are a reputable seller then I am sure they will have no issue with having you return the pipe and refunding you.... Such a bummer that you have in effect wasted so much time and effort on this...

As for Beanflicker... well dude I don't even know where to start with you... It has been obvious from the start that Waf really really wanted the AR system to work and he has tried and tried to get some decent numbers from it .. and cant get close the the sellers claims... and yet you continue to support and rave above this product...Do you have an interest or connection with AR you would like to reveal here?? Because otherwise your backing for them makes absolutely no sense...

I am waiting for digital versions of the various dyno runs then I will post them later.

So far we have run my bike on the same dyno three time:

#1. With Termi slips
#2. With AR untuned
#3. With AR tuned

I've attached the dyno graph that shows #1 against #3.

Remember I have already discounted getting peak HP figures as the dyno is conservative but its completely valid to make direct comparisons on the differential between the three runs and compare the 'relative' performance.

If it makes anyone feel any better the Full Termi is having similar problems.

My question isn't a demand, simply a question as I prepare to spend another $600 for tuning time on top of the money I have already spent.

-the dyno's bad
-the tuners bad
-it's the "trolls" fault
-it's WAF's fault
-but many hours were spent on development
-you need a wind tunnel - thanks beanflicker, that was a new one!

Have I missed anything?

ttkarp said:

-the dyno's bad
-the tuners bad
-it's the "trolls" fault
-it's WAF's fault
-but many hours were spent on development
-you need a wind tunnel - thanks beanflicker, that was a new one!

Have I missed anything?

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Perhaps Waf should be banned also...

So I've asked the other dyno if they can squeeze in a run tomorrow even if its just to get a simple baseline we can compare against the various 1199 they have tested. It may have to wait until next week though if they can't.

WAfatboy said:

So I've asked the other dyno if they can squeeze in a run tomorrow even if its just to get a simple baseline we can compare against the various 1199 they have tested. It may have to wait until next week though if they can't.

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Do they have the F1 wind tunnel needed to tune this exhaust properly?

If the 150 mph fan is all that's missing, I would think AR could post numbers at various fan speeds that would best replicate fans available to the general market. If not, this would imply you must go 150 to realize all the hp, which few of us will ever achieve.

Beanflicker said:

Are you serious....?????....

Do you take your tyres back if they slide?

Do you get your money back if you don't get the fuel consumption figures as per manufacturers info...?

Someone, another tuner, has already substantiated AR claims and their recommendations to achieve the required results.....

Get it done as per recommended guidelines (previously mentioned by more than one tuner..!)

.

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Be really clear - The tuner in Sydney that substantiated their peak HP claims (Wayne from Tuneboy) was one of the guys working on my bike yesterday - he flew 4,500km to help with the tuning. I chose not post that before because it seemed unnecessary given the fact that these tests are being performed in good faith. I am not querying the peak HP claims as I have said previously.

Wayne did not substantiate the improvements over stock or Termis because the bike was already fitted with the AR pipe. This still hasn't been substantiated independently.

I am querying the performance over my previous Termi slips setup. I am going to the other tuner anyway as planned and stated in a couple of previous posts. The reason being the 'ram air' setup which apparently what is missing although I'd love to know how, all things being constant, that would account for the lack of improvement in relative performance.

Trauma said:

If the 150 mph fan is all that's missing, I would think AR could post numbers at various fan speeds that would best replicate fans available to the general market. If not, this would imply you must go 150 to realize all the hp, which few of us will ever achieve.

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Ah C'mon Trauma...Just open that throttle a little..

WAfatboy said:

Be really clear - The tuner in Sydney that substantiated their peak HP claims (Wayne from Tuneboy) was one of the guys working on my bike yesterday - he flew 4,500km to help with the tuning. I chose not post that before because it seemed unnecessary given the fact that these tests are being performed in good faith. I am not querying the peak HP claims as I have said previously.

I am querying the performance over my previous Termi slips setup. I am going to the other tuner anyway as planned and stated in a couple of previous posts. The reason being the 'ram air' setup which apparently what is missing although I'd love to know how, all things being constant, that would account for the lack of improvement in relative performance.

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You're right. You have completely satisfied "relative", unless the AR pipe operates more like a turbo then the Termi, where more air forced into the airbox allows the Pani to combust more fuel and exhaust through the AR pipe, but not the Termi. I added a ram air system to my '92 ZX7R, it helped, but not by a whole lot.

Rich22 said:

Every dyno i know of in the UK has more power to the ram air than we have. We have 150mph, crescent suzuki have 200mph and so on.

When you ride the bike has that wind speed blasted into the front so of course it is best to reproduce the affects to get a good accurate high end map.

We still see mid 180's with the fan turned off!

In our tests we see a better range from the termi slip ons than the termi full system, With Up Maps used. That was always the point we made, the up maps are terrible and actually reduced power on the full system.
The full system always created a massive torque hole at the 5-6000rpm region, something the slips did not do.

When mapped with the Termi full system and RB we still found we can not get rid of the hole and peak power was barely up from the slips.

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If I'm reading the bold qoute above correctly, Rich seems to suggest here that you should see decent results without the wind tunnel.

http://ducati1199.com/marketplace/4259-austinracing-inconel-full-system-new-group-buy.html

Hey BeanFlicker..... Perhaps you wanna sign up for this...

WAF did you try the cruise control?

Im not getting any further into the crazy stuff posted by a few members. If you chose to read 1 result as read as against looking at the earlier results from Copia and facts from other tuners/dyno centres then that is pretty narrow minded.

As previously stated and previously proven in this thread the dyno needs to be pushing 150mph+ winds into the ram air or the Pani will not perform, especially with an open race exhaust system that expels gasses far more efficiently than a slip on set up. It simply must be mapped with that set up for any exhaust system to see good figures.

Private emails have been sent to WAfatboy

Beanflickers comments seem pretty correct to me!

AR stand by its published power figures. If a few dyno centres are not able to re produce the same results that is due to many things, our exhaust NOT being 1 of them.

Trauma said:

You're right. You have completely satisfied "relative", unless the AR pipe operates more like a turbo then the Termi, where more air forced into the airbox allows the Pani to combust more fuel and exhaust through the AR pipe, but not the Termi. I added a ram air system to my '92 ZX7R, it helped, but not by a whole lot.

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Yep, cause I'm sure on a more optimistic dyno the peak numbers will stack up or at least come close as we saw with Wayne's tune of Copiya's bike in Sydney.

Having spent an extra $4300 so far on top of the $2700 I spent on Termi slips previously I think its reasonable for there to be a relative performance increase given the product claims and I will go the extra mile to find out either way.

No-one wants a good result more than me!

wmcdonal said:

WAF did you try the cruise control?

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Not yet but long run tomorrow so we'll see

Rich22 said:

Im not getting any further into the crazy stuff posted by a few members. If you chose to read 1 result as read as against looking at the earlier results from Copia and facts from other tuners/dyno centres then that is pretty narrow minded.

As previously stated and previously proven in this thread the dyno needs to be pushing 150mph+ winds into the ram air or the Pani will not perform, especially with an open race exhaust system that expels gasses far more efficiently than a slip on set up. It simply must be mapped with that set up for any exhaust system to see good figures.

Private emails have been sent to WAfatboy

Beanflickers comments seem pretty correct to me!

AR stand by its published power figures. If a few dyno centres are not able to re produce the same results that is due to many things, our exhaust NOT being 1 of them.

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So its not AR,,,Its everybody else?? Right??

WAfatboy said:

Yep, cause I'm sure on a more optimistic dyno the peak numbers will stack up or at least come close as we saw with Wayne's tune of Copiya's bike in Sydney.

Having spent an extra $4300 so far on top of the $2700 I spent on Termi slips previously I think its reasonable for there to be a relative performance increase given the product claims and I will go the extra mile to find out either way.

No-one wants a good result more than me!

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Holy crap.... $4300??? and it seems theres more to come?? You must be getting some great discounts on your dyno times...as you said previously you were at around $4600????