Austinracing Exhaust Questions Part2 1199R

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Again for anyone reading this for the first time, I bought the AR 'inconel' system and am therefore a 'customer'. I've put plenty of mileage on the product and I'm happy to answer questions about the product and service. :D
 
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transdesigner said:
Just wanted to comment that I've worked at GE Aviation on turbine engine design where mainstream use of "inco" first started... so I promise you I know more about it and its material properties. I've also been involved on the gearbox side of F1 and Indy, among others motorsports. Although like I've admitted before, I'm not an exhaust expert, but just had to correct you there :) The rest of the post I think I'll refrain from responding to...
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Hey Trans - you might be able to help me understand something.

When my AR system broke it cracked around the purged weld that held the bracket in place. To someone with no background in these things, and to my mechanics it looked like there was not enough surface area contact, ie. forces were being concentrated over a very small area therefore causing stress fractures. I have attached a pic.
 

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So when I received the replacement section (which looked a lot more scratched and discoloured than my previous pipe so I'm wondering if it was a used pipe!) I expected to see a much bigger contact patch. It is bigger but looks like the same setup and I'm concerned it will break again - what do reckon?
 

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George Villar said:
So my question is what constitutes an "exhaust system"? Every system I would ever consider for my 1199 would have silencers (slip-ons). I don't know what the forum considers a "system" but mandrel bent pipes without the silencers is not a true full system in my opinion such as AR offers. The most expensive part of the system is the silencer design and materials, along with fit and finish. Mind you, I am an AR customer for a RapidBIKE race module and every race part in the DIMSPORT catalog purchased from Rich. (Service was excellent).

That said, the Termi system has complicated mufflers, as does the Akra system and both are in expensive titanium. The ZARD under tail system has carbon fiber mufflers, and even the MIVV system has round (although not attractive) cans.

So knowing that Ducati has released the WSSK header kit that shows what AR demonstrated early on is correct, that if compared side by side the WSSK header and OEM header are VERY similar. So, the engine likes a longer header set = some restriction for torque. This along with a Termi muffler would get the best results as Rich demonstrated in the past with his testing and dyno sheets"¦ remember: 1199 + OEM header + Termi Slip + Rapid Bike RACE = higher HP.

So how does an AR System with just open pipes work better than OEM header w/ Termi?

Will someone post comparative numbers?

Thanks,

George Villar
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Hi George

By open pipes I'm assuming you mean with no baffles as AR has no muffler? In that case my very first instal thread has that information. The reality is that untuned both systems were outperformed by the Termi slips. That seems to support your comments about the muffler.
http://ducati1199.com/ducati-1199/4232-ar-inconel-install.html

There are also several dyno charts here (from a different dyno)
http://ducati1199.com/ducati-1199/4493-austin-racing-inconel-install-part-ii.html

ProTwin are experimenting with a Panigale race bike and they have removed the muffler and fabricated their own 2-1 with a basic muffler. I get my bike back tomorrow and should have a further dyno chart.
 
WAfatboy said:
So when I received the replacement section (which looked a lot more scratched and discoloured than my previous pipe so I'm wondering if it was a used pipe!) I expected to see a much bigger contact patch. It is bigger but looks like the same setup and I'm concerned it will break again - what do reckon?
Click to expand...

Hi WAF,

If I may chime in on this?
After seeing these latest pics.
The original piece that broke out of the tube, clearly broke out at the toe of the weld in what's called the HAZ (heat affected zone).
What has happened there on that piece is directly a result of fatigue cracking. I would say that it will ultimately happen in time to every one of these items out in the wild. Jesus Christ himself will not be able to stop it.
The weld itself is not defective and has a concave profile, which in this application would be deemed to be ideal.:)
The cracking is just a byproduct of using thin walled tube in that exhaust section. I'm a little surprised that this potential problem was not forseen in the design phase.
Now that i'm looking at pics of it, i personally would've put a doubler on the tube in that area from the start.

The reworked item has now had a doubler welded onto the tube to mitigate the potential for cracking.
The doubler appears to me, to be of the correct size and shape.
I can't really tell from looking at the pics of the doubler, but idealy it should be a bit thicker than the tube's wall thickness. It sort of appears as though it is.
This repair is typical of what one should expect, and should it fail in the future at the weld on the tube, then a larger doubler that occupies a larger area on the tube would be in order.

The welding is not the most beautiful work I've seen, but it appears to be quite reasonable and sound:)

I also see that it looks like the original bracket is cracked near the fastener end:(
It looks as though it's been laser cut, which is not a problem in itself and typical of what one would expect. This leaves sharp corners on the edge of the material.
Going forward, I would strongly suggest all external bracket edges and edges of all internal fastener holes, whether they be slotted or simply round, must be de-burred with a generous edge break in order to mitigate further cracking.
Harmonics are potentially destroying the exhaust components.


No criticism of the product is intended.

Cheers
 
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WAfatboy said:
Great post! Exactly what ProTwin said.
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No worries;)

Just make sure to de-burr all the edges of all the brackets on the system if you can, or the bracket themselves will crack and ultimately fail :-(

Cheers
 
Brad said:
No worries;)

Just make sure to de-burr all the edges of all the brackets on the system if you can, or the bracket themselves will crack and ultimately fail :-(

Cheers
Click to expand...

You're like the exact opposite of burnsy:D
 
ttkarp said:
You're like the exact opposite of burnsy:D
Click to expand...

You just get to see the tempered side of me.
I'm all grown up now:)

As a child, I could string a set of swear words together in a reasonably coherent fashion that anyone could understand (to their horror). This was before I could put real words together properly:eek:
It was quite legendary back in the day;)
Sadly, some things stay with you forever and run very deep:-(

Has anyone seen the "Hitler hates chevy badges" thing on youtube?
It's a snippet out of the Downfall movie where Hitler is doing his block in the bunker.
It's mostly based on the my local area's modified car scene, and I find it absolutely hilarious.
Well, I can make Hitler sound like an amateur.

Cheers
 
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Brad said:
You guys are bad news;):eek:
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Brad..Yeah we probably are... But it is remotely possible that people have been educated with regards to this system... and now the info is in the public domain so anyone viewing buying choices for an exhaust system has a lot more info than they did previous to this whole AR charade... I note with interest that your assessment of the welding "issues" contain way more info and technical break down than anything Rich has ever come near too... and herein lies the rub... Rich has only ever spouted platitudes generalities and I guess what could be termed BS... and that's been in his good posts...:)
 
Stw said:
Brad..Yeah we probably are... But it is remotely possible that people have been educated with regards to this system... and now the info is in the public domain so anyone viewing buying choices for an exhaust system has a lot more info than they did previous to this whole AR charade... I note with interest that your assessment of the welding "issues" contain way more info and technical break down than anything Rich has ever come near too... and herein lies the rub... Rich has only ever spouted platitudes generalities and I guess what could be termed BS... and that's been in his good posts...:)
Click to expand...

There were good posts? Did I miss something??
 
Brad said:
Hi WAF,

If I may chime in on this?
After seeing these latest pics.
The original piece that broke out of the tube, clearly broke out at the toe of the weld in what's called the HAZ (heat affected zone).
What has happened there on that piece is directly a result of fatigue cracking. I would say that it will ultimately happen in time to every one of these items out in the wild. Jesus Christ himself will not be able to stop it.
The weld itself is not defective and has a concave profile, which in this application would be deemed to be ideal.:)
The cracking is just a byproduct of using thin walled tube in that exhaust section. I'm a little surprised that this potential problem was not forseen in the design phase.
Now that i'm looking at pics of it, i personally would've put a doubler on the tube in that area from the start.

The reworked item has now had a doubler welded onto the tube to mitigate the potential for cracking.
The doubler appears to me, to be of the correct size and shape.
I can't really tell from looking at the pics of the doubler, but idealy it should be a bit thicker than the tube's wall thickness. It sort of appears as though it is.
This repair is typical of what one should expect, and should it fail in the future at the weld on the tube, then a larger doubler that occupies a larger area on the tube would be in order.

The welding is not the most beautiful work I've seen, but it appears to be quite reasonable and sound:)

I also see that it looks like the original bracket is cracked near the fastener end:(
It looks as though it's been laser cut, which is not a problem in itself and typical of what one would expect. This leaves sharp corners on the edge of the material.
Going forward, I would strongly suggest all external bracket edges and edges of all internal fastener holes, whether they be slotted or simply round, must be de-burred with a generous edge break in order to mitigate further cracking.
Harmonics are potentially destroying the exhaust components.


No criticism of the product is intended.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Sorry for the late response Waf, I was out golfing last night :)
I basically agree with what Brad said. The original design is poor for a couple reasons... The weakening of the thin walled material from the weld as Brad stated, but also the fact that it's a very thin piece transfering load through a very small contact area to the the pipe... (the same force causes less stress if distributed over a larger area) so it's a pretty simple stress consentration at a weakened section. It would be nice to see the bracket contact area to the pipe larger, perhaps by welding it to a thicker base plate that matched the contour of the pipe, then welding that to the pipe, which is essentially AR's solution with the doubler as Brad stated, but looks a little messy IMO
 
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so now they addressed the problem of the product....maybe they can be improved ?...and we can be all happy about it instead of denying AR's potential grow just because of "rich"?

just a rookie question, so if the exhaust broke on WAF, what exact damage did it cost?
 

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