Back in the shop

endodoc said:

Don't know, I got that info off the Z website. My Woolich kit shipped with 2 3's.

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It looks like the kits are different between the xx99 and V4.

https://www.woolichracing.com/produ...1199s-panigale-ecu-flashing.aspx#productTable
https://www.woolichracing.com/produ...1-ducati-v4v4s-ecu-flashing.aspx#productTable
Its been a few years but I could have sworn the xx99 series Akrapovic exhausts had bungs for widebands with an adapter or a plug for narrowband sensors.

Mine did

I got some clarification

The V Twin Ducati’s need 2 O2 sensors because of the configuration of those engines, for the V4’s they say one is fine and the software is set up to be able disable the other and log and tune with one O2 sensor.

That’s my understanding as well. I just find it somewhat simplified. Using 1 sensor to sample 4 separate combustion chambers. So with the V4, unlike the V2 you have no way to manipulate a/f or ig except globally. Seems very general.

Steven31371 said:

I got some clarification

The V Twin Ducati’s need 2 O2 sensors because of the configuration of those engines, for the V4’s they say one is fine and the software is set up to be able disable the other and log and tune with one O2 sensor.

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That doesn’t explain much. What about the twins configuration necessitates 2 sensors other than them being V? Surely that means the V4 will benefit from at least 2 sensors also.

They even mention “dual” zt3 in the product description.



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I also solved a potential issue…Ohlins only makes a spring that runs up to 115n…that’s already still a bit light for me, and it’s the heaviest spring rate Ohlins offers for my rear shock.…and I’m adding a a linear shock link and the extended Pierobon swingarm, both of which require a heavier spring than you would normally use….I found some heavier springs by Ktech though, they are the same size and dimension as the Ohlins so they should work fine…I’m ordering the 120n, 130n, and 140n springs which I hope will be heavy enough….I’ll start with the 130n and move up or down from there.

Eventually, with some seat time abs some weight loss I’ll do it right and get something custom valved on a better overall setup, but for now this is a good solution.

https://store.ktechsuspension.com/shock-absorber-spring-140n-46x180-red-46-180-140.html

endodoc said:

That’s my understanding as well. I just find it somewhat simplified. Using 1 sensor to sample 4 separate combustion chambers. So with the V4, unlike the V2 you have no way to manipulate a/f or ig except globally. Seems very general.

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The V4 cylinders can be tuned individually.


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Alkhater said:

The V4 cylinders can be tuned individually.


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Ok how is that accomplished without an individual data channel for each cylinder? Where are you getting data idiosyncratic to an individual cylinder to be able to differentiate? I’m just asking, this isn’t my specialty.

endodoc said:

Ok how is that accomplished without an individual data channel for each cylinder? Where are you getting data idiosyncratic to an individual cylinder to be able to differentiate? I’m just asking, this isn’t my specialty.

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Are you talking about the woolich application specifically or the V4 in general?

The V4 platform can of course be tuned to individual cylinders, it has 2 sensors from the factory and on the euro 5 it has 4. Most modern ecu’s control injectors individually.


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endodoc said:

Ok how is that accomplished without an individual data channel for each cylinder? Where are you getting data idiosyncratic to an individual cylinder to be able to differentiate? I’m just asking, this isn’t my specialty.

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My guess would be that the trick valve system on the V4’s and the intake manifold….if they are really confident that the intake manifold and the exhaust is going to feed and empty each cylinder with air very close to equally as well under load and at speed with some ram air effect happening then you could get away with one O2 sensor.

But then you also have to ASSUME the bike is in nearly perfect working order mechanically, because you could probably detect if it wasn’t, but you could not detect in the logging which cylinder is having a problem like I can on the Porsche.

I guess the philosophy behind it is, this is a simplified but effective tuner, that you can customize or auto tune a bike in perfect working order….but if something broken on the bike take it to the shop and get a more granular diagnostic.

Steven31371 said:

My guess would be that the trick valve system on the V4’s and the intake manifold….if they are really confident that the intake manifold and the exhaust is going to feed and empty each cylinder with air very close to equally as well under load and at speed with some ram air effect happening then you could get away with one O2 sensor.

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There’s no doubt it can be gotten away with. Like mentioned previously, cars do it all the time with less efficient intake systems.

The difference in volumetric efficiency between the cylinders on these bikes will be within 5% max, probably less.

I’m just curious why they don’t take a reading from each bank like they do with the twins.


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From what I remember in the Marelli notes that were with the BSD kit, the L design has something to do with it. The cylinders process AF and exhaust gasses slightly different. You can see it on the software in the log file. There is a process in the manual to optimize the H and V cylinders. Theoretically I guess on an inline 4 of built correctly, the cylinders should be real close. On the V4, no idea

Alkhater said:

There’s no doubt it can be gotten away with. Like mentioned previously, cars do it all the time with less efficient intake systems.

The difference in volumetric efficiency between the cylinders on these bikes will be within 5% max, probably less.

I’m just curious why they don’t take a reading from each bank like they do with the twins.


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My guess is there is probably a completely different intake manifold setup, abs the higher Erving V4’s and that trick valve system are probably more precise, though that last bit wouldn’t be much of a difference.

Depending on what the intake manifolds look like and the exhaust configuration you can abs often do see one cylinder on one bank showing a decent variation in Lamba to another cylinder in a different bank…especially under load and with a bit of ram air effect….I know this from running meth in cars where any variation in airflow no matter how small becomes an exponential issue when trying to get equal amounts of air into each cylinder in order to pull in equal amounts of atomized methanol. With the 991 era Porsches you get limited on fuel so you don’t just use methanol for cooling, you spray a lot of it to also function as a secondary fuel supply….so small variations of airflow have to be VERY closely monitored cylinder to cylinder.

I suspect that the intake manifolds and the exhaust system in the V Twins probably have a higher variation of airflow in and out cylinder to cylinder than the V4 setup….just a guess though.

And because of the lower variation in the airflows in the V4 it make be close enough in tolerance that they are fine running one O2…overall variations in Lambda per cylinder might be small between the two bikes, but it’s a game of inches here…my guess is on the V Twins the tolerance for cycle fee to cylinder lamda variations might be just outside their comfort zone for one O2 sensor and the V4’s are just enough inside their comfort zone.

So the cost of the kit versus benefit equation on the V4 tilts it just enough.


I’m gunna send the Woolich guys a link to this convo and see if they want to weigh in…it’s a big enough forum in a big enough market that they may.

endodoc said:

From what I remember in the Marelli notes that were with the BSD kit, the L design has something to do with it. The cylinders process AF and exhaust gasses slightly different. You can see it on the software in the log file. There is a process in the manual to optimize the H and V cylinders. Theoretically I guess on an inline 4 of built correctly, the cylinders should be real close. On the V4, no idea

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Bingo…from what I’ve seen of these exhausts abs what the intakes look like it’s pretty equal length runners…so if the air inlets are designed well each cylinder should be pretty damn close to running the same Lamdas

endodoc said:

. Theoretically I guess on an inline 4 of built correctly, the cylinders should be real close. On the V4, no idea

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It’s just a function of intake manifold and exhaust runner design. Those are the tangible factors that influence volumetric efficiency.


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Alkhater said:

It’s just a function of intake manifold and exhaust runner design. Those are the tangible factors that influence volumetric efficiency.


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Yes


Well, and the valving setup, correct cylinder windage becomes an issue when pushing power to ultimate material limits too but that’s not a thing on these bikes.

There’s also variations in the injectors themselves, they have slightly different output. There’s that to consider.

Unless it’s a hi-end injector builder like Injector Dynamics that offer injector balancing by batches (meaning they flow every injector and and match like performing sets) then I would definitely want individual cylinder control.


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Steven31371 said:

Yes


Well, and the valving setup, correct cylinder windage becomes an issue when pushing power to ultimate material limits too but that’s not a thing on these bikes.

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You’re right even though our motors are pushing 14:1 compression and 15k rpm it’s not really a thing compared to boosted applications, the combustion pressures are a lot less.


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Alkhater said:

There’s also variations in the injectors themselves, they have slightly different output. There’s that to consider.

Unless it’s a hi-end injector builder like Injector Dynamics that offer injector balancing by batches (meaning they flow every injector and and match like performing sets) then I would definitely want individual cylinder control.


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Yeah and even if they begin with matched flows it’s not uncommon for one to degenerate faster than another in a batch.

Nearly every time we do a new iteration to the Porsche we just bite the bullet and drop $1500 on a new injector set and about once per racing season we replace them pre-emptively.

Superbike Unlimited suggested they got impressive gains when they went to four sensors. Each cylinder was mapped very differently.

I guess, it depends what 'impressive gains' equals though...and how much you want to spend to achieve them.