Baseline geometry settings for 1199?

jyli19 · Jul 16, 2015

Your suspension guy kept your spring because he swap it out for free? What?

On the Panigale TTX shock, you just unscrew the end and pull the spring out, don't need a spring compressor.

Steve B · Jul 16, 2015

Ductard said:
You mind sharing how you got that info?

All the Ohlins spring decoders I could find seem to be for rear springs (where -05 and -10 are Ohlins specific codes that give rates that are way off from what these would be).

Unless it's as simple as -10 = 10.0 and -05 = 10.5, so that a 9.5 would be -95 and an 11.5 would be -15...am I on the right track?

Sure - forget where I got this, but have at it. Always useful to have some help decoding spring gibberish!

Hmmm... Wont let me attach an Excel file. Here's a screen snip of the relevant spring codes.

jarelj · Jul 16, 2015

Well, suspension setup is as much an art as it is a science due to the rider being such a big part of the equation, so there's not one "right" answer. I say try the lighter spring and see what you think, it should be easy to tell if it benefits you or not, if you can tell the rear is hooking up better.

Steve B · Jul 16, 2015

Ductard said:
Ok, thanks. I don't have the 11's anymore (the suspension guys swapped them for free so they kept the springs).

If there's a difference between the right rear spring for my weight vs. the right spring relative to the front, I'd rather get the right one for my weight and be done with it. It will be easier to stiffen up the front if need be. The rear has been a challenge because nobody stocks those springs but they all seem to have front springs that will fit.

Also, worth mentioning - re: the front springs, I don't think even the experienced suspension guys are used to seeing as much tube showing as these forks do when they're bottomed. I took the springs out to check / adjust the fork oil height and there was 30mm between the top of the axle lug (?) and the rubber band travel indicator when the fork is bottomed and the band is pushed against the dust seal. I think I saw somebody measured 33mm to the dust seal?

Either way, I think the fact that I looked like I was using ~1/2 of the travel, when I was really using more like 3/4 might have made them err on the side of a hair too light, if anything. I don't know if "Front sag: 20-25mm free / 37 rider" suggests correct spring rates, but we'll see what happens once the rear isn't so problematic and I can squeeze the brake with my normal lever pressure.

Agreed on the correct rear rate to begin with being the way to go; just think you may well be good with the 95, what with you at 220 or more in full gear. Should definitely in the 90-95 range, and if the 95 turns out good, then you might do a bit of balancing if need be by slightly tweaking the front. You appear to be at 10.25 now with 10.0/10.5, so a 10.0/11.0 would be a very small bump up front to 10.50. However, your free vs loaded sag numbers on the front (assuming they are accurately done) don't look like the springs are too soft to me.

Ductard · Jul 16, 2015

jarelj said:
Well, suspension setup is as much an art as it is a science due to the rider being such a big part of the equation, so there's not one "right" answer. I say try the lighter spring and see what you think, it should be easy to tell if it benefits you or not, if you can tell the rear is hooking up better.

If it makes you feel any better, I was a little hesitant to argue with the Ohlins Tech when he suggested a 100, but I told him there were a lot of people online saying to go with a 95 MAX.

When I told him said people were from Ducati of Omaha he said "oh, I know those guys....they're the experts on suspension on THAT bike. Let's go with the 95."

Ductard · Jul 16, 2015

jyli19 said:
Your suspension guy kept your spring because he swap it out for free? What?

Meaning they didn't charge me for the labor OR the springs, so I get the "right" springs for free but didn't wind up with "extra" springs. Seems right to me, and better than expected. Apparently it's something included in Ohlins trackside support. Not sure exactly how it works, whether it's just in the initial bike setup....I mean the guy that did it didn't require any type of proof of purchase but I'm guessing you prolly can't get re-sprung for free years down the read.

jyli19 said:
On the Panigale TTX shock, you just unscrew the end and pull the spring out, don't need a spring compressor.

I Believe you there, but Ohlins said it took a spring compressor, so I just had them ship it straight to a shop my bike is going to be at. Too late to turn back now.

wfoduck · Jul 16, 2015

I was having a lot of tire tearing at Nyst . I contacted Peter Kates of Computrack and he's suggested I went to a softer rear spring . I'm running a Penske rear and ohlins 30mm up front . It seems to be better now , I ran a 133.6 last sat before I low sided before Wheelie hill and completely destroyed my bike .

Ductard · Jul 16, 2015

wfoduck said:
I was having a lot of tire tearing at Nyst . I contacted Peter Kates of Computrack and he's suggested I went to a softer rear spring . I'm running a Penske rear and ohlins 30mm up front . It seems to be better now , I ran a 133.6 last sat before I low sided before Wheelie hill and completely destroyed my bike .

Oh yeah, I'm the guy that told you about rubbersideup.com.

Were you able to salvage the internals on those forks?

wfoduck · Jul 17, 2015

Thanks for the heads up on that ! I haven't had a chance to pull it apart . I'm heading down sat to flag and bank another track day . I'll be tearing her apart on Sunday .

Ductard · Jul 18, 2015

Ductard said:
Found some numbers for rear ride height and fork height here,

Stock numbers are:
rear measured as an eye-to-eye length of 309mm
forks measured from the top of the fork cap to the top of the triple - 6mm.

Looks like jarelj tried it at 306mm and 9mm and didn't like it.

So I'm wondering if that front fork measurement to the top of the cap would be different with the 30mm cartridge installed. The caps are sort of tall (going to the upper part, not the undulated part.

It's now set to 6mm and there's only a mm or two of fork tube showing above the triple

Ductard · Jul 18, 2015

jarelj said:
That just doesn't add up, if you're 205, I would have to see it to believe it that you can run a 105Nm spring on the back and get 13 free/30 rider for sag. That's 3 rates stiffer than I would run for someone your weight. I am 205 in gear, and I have an 85Nm spring on the back with 10/28 sag. Your stock suspension would have had a 90Nm spring on it, and you were 7 seconds faster, why go to a super-stiff 105Nm spring? Not knowing anything else, I'd pinpoint that as the issue, not the ride height. Ultra-stiff spring on the rear, bike doesn't squat enough, spins up the rear as soon as you touch the throttle. Keeps weight bias too far forward mid-turn and makes the bike unstable.

Now that I have a 95 spring in the rear, do you happen to know a good starting point for the clickers, front and rear?

I know they ship "pre-set" - but they've been clicked this way and that so much that I just want to start over from baseline, which I unfortunately don't have written down (live and learn)

sean999r · Jul 18, 2015

Set up according to Dave Moss Supension master class video on YouTube will put you where you need to be, someone else's clicker setting with different weight set-up riding style will probably not be valid for you

Ductard · Jul 18, 2015

sean999r said:
Set up according to Dave Moss Supension master class video on YouTube will put you where you need to be, someone else's clicker setting with different weight set-up riding style will probably not be valid for you

I get what you're saying, but these are supposed to be "pre-set" from the factory and I was thinking it would be best to get back to those #'s and then dial in from there....

I don't get good enough data service at the track to watch a video (already on the road), I've got the book "Sportbike Suspension Tuning" by Trevett, which I'm guessing will be a similar method.

sean999r · Jul 18, 2015

Hopefully someone will assist you good luck, I think the moral to your unfortunate story is never make changes without knowing your base starting points / chassis dim'

Charliem90 · Jul 18, 2015

Ductard said:
I get what you're saying, but these are supposed to be "pre-set" from the factory and I was thinking it would be best to get back to those #'s and then dial in from there....

All those settings are listed in your owners manual (to point out the obvious).

Ductard · Jul 18, 2015

Charliem90 said:
All those settings are listed in your owners manual (to point out the obvious).

If anybody has an owners manual handy for 30mm NIX cartridges it would be awesome if you could post the comp/rebound recommended settings.

I have the owners manual for the rear shock, but the one for the cartridges must be at home.

The rear's manual listed sag reco's for front and rear but only rebound/compression for the rear.

Motovid · Jul 19, 2015

http://www.ohlins.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/07284-01-om-ohlins-fork-cartridge-kit-30mm.pdf

Free spring length
260 mm

Compression adjustment
Maximum open valve about 20 clicks.

Rebound adjustment
Maximum open valve about 20 clicks.

Spring preload adjustment
0 - 18 mm (0 - 18 turns)

For reference, here are my settings

FORKS 8MM thru triple
SPRINGS 1025
PRELOAD 10mm
COMP. 10
REBOUND 12

Steve B · Jul 19, 2015

Ductard said:
If anybody has an owners manual handy for 30mm NIX cartridges it would be awesome if you could post the comp/rebound recommended settings.

I have the owners manual for the rear shock, but the one for the cartridges must be at home.

The rear's manual listed sag reco's for front and rear but only rebound/compression for the rear.

From the FGK224 installation manual for the 1199 Panigale:

Recommended set-up:
Compression 12 clicks
Rebound 12 clicks
Spring rate 10 N/mm
Spring preload 6 mm
Oil level 190 mm
Fork leg position 5 mm
Ohlins Front Fork Fluid part no 01309-01

Ductard · Jul 20, 2015

Motovid said:
http://www.ohlins.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/07284-01-om-ohlins-fork-cartridge-kit-30mm.pdf

Free spring length
260 mm

Compression adjustment
Maximum open valve about 20 clicks.

Rebound adjustment
Maximum open valve about 20 clicks.

Spring preload adjustment
0 - 18 mm (0 - 18 turns)

For reference, here are my settings

FORKS 8MM thru triple
SPRINGS 1025
PRELOAD 10mm
COMP. 10
REBOUND 12

Steve B said:
From the FGK224 installation manual for the 1199 Panigale:

Recommended set-up:
Compression 12 clicks
Rebound 12 clicks
Spring rate 10 N/mm
Spring preload 6 mm
Oil level 190 mm
Fork leg position 5 mm
Ohlins Front Fork Fluid part no 01309-01

Thanks!

The lighter spring in the rear helped a lot. I dropped 3 seconds - to a 1:38, there are maybe a couple more seconds to be gained by re-gaining my comfort.

Also thinking about backing off a turn or two of preload in the rear, b/c the rear is hooking up better, but still isn't hooking up quite like I wanted to, and the front seems to have plenty of traction to spare to finish turns. Sag is at 28mm vs. the 29 recommended in the user manual...but the good news is now I have 10-12 turns of preload to work with vs. none with the stiffer spring!

However....in the front, I've got the rebound almost closed (1 click out) to keep the front from bouncing right back at me (both bouncing on it in the paddock and on the track) and the compression almost open (I think like 18 clicks out of the 20) to make it feel like it's using a significant amount of travel. While to me as a noobie, that sort of sounds like the behavior of springs that are way, way too stiff, I don't think a mixed rate equivalent of 10.25 in the front would account for that, no? I mean, to totally overpower the rebound circuit up until the final 2 clicks sounds like it would take a monster spring...hoping I don't need a re-valve. Not sure how involved that is but sounds sort of expensive

Motovid · Jul 20, 2015

Ductard,

Disclaimer: I am no suspension tuner, however I do manage my settings once tuned for the street or track. With a baseline set, utilizing a simple procedure while maintaining good notes usually works pretty good.

A basic way to dial in the bike once you have the proper spring, baseline/sag established for you/your weight; go to the middle setting for compression & rebound - 10 clicks each, ride it. How does it feel ? Identify what you like, dislike to establish immediate goals then work from there based on the desired results, e.g. Slow down / increase compression or rebound (+/- 2 clicks at a time) til you don't like the feedback or result then go back 1 click on the respective clicker, rebound or compression. Do this individually, then. Test/ride. so you can start to feel the difference and ease the complexity. It can be easy to get lost.

Once again, key here is to maintain detailed notes, settings starting point, track condition and then track your progress with comments from each ride/session on feedback so you have something to talk to your suspension tuner in the event there is a mechanical failure, e.g. Valving issue.

Good luck!

Baseline geometry settings for 1199?

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