Ducati BHP figures

Something highlighted to me during a different discussion/thread (in fact fell foul of truth be told!) is Ducati and their change in BHP measurement.

When I bought my 2015 R it was advertised as a 205 BHP motorcycle, it even stated at the time, on the panigale R page, 205 BHP. I also owned previous incarnations of the Panigale which at the time were also hailed as 195 bhp. Now we all know a lot of that is a bit of massaging of figures and is the figure at the crank then losses so a real world figure of RWHP was probably a good 10 BHP less which we all kind of knew and accepted.

With the recent arrival of the 1299 R Ducati's site now explains how this figure is measured and how it matches the homologation requirements and the registration document. So out of curiosity I looked back through the model archive. They have now adjusted all of their figures of new bikes and gone through their own archive downgrading all of their old bikes BHP figures too.

I can't help but feel a little hard done by that they can do this and not be pulled up for false advertising.

Stupid question I know but there is obviously a difference in measuring BHP at the crank or with new method of the engine dynomometer....... I thought these were the same?

I was a little ticked off when I saw they done this. When I bought my 1299S it was one of the key things listed 205BHP. I knew that it was not rwhp but it was still one of the cool factors to say.

Interesting, yes. So my 1299 went from 205bhp to 197bhp...oh Ducati. #sigh

Here's the exact wording on the disclosure of the revised power measurement:

* The power/torque values indicated are measured using an engine dynamometer according to homologation regulation and they correspond to the homologated data, as quoted in the Bike Registration Document.

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It's suspicious that this new power measurement is deployed after the release of the 1299sl/fe...hmnnn.

EDIT: Here's the previous power measurement's disclosure:

*The power values indicated above are measured using a chassis dynamometer. Homologated power data, as quoted in the Bike Registration Document, are measured using an engine dynamometer according to the homologation regulation. The two power values may differ because of the different measurement equipments.

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Look, found in their very own ....... brochure



The more I think about this the more it pisses me off

GunMoto said:

Interesting, yes. So my 1299 went from 205bhp to 197bhp...oh Ducati. #sigh

Here's the exact wording on the disclosure of the revised power measurement:

It's suspicious that this new power measurement is deployed after the release of the 1299sl/fe...hmnnn.

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My -16 R... 185hp....

Mutt1979 said:

Look, found in their very own ....... brochure

View attachment 23578

The more I think about this the more it pisses me off

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I don't get it.

Did your motorcycle suddenly get slower or does it give you the same thrill as before?

Sutki said:

My -16 R... 185hp....

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This is a damn lot of power (some may say too much power) for anything on 2 wheels!

It doesn't change what my bike makes on a dyno.

WTF does it matter?

Rogue said:

It doesn't change what my bike makes on a dyno.

WTF does it matter?

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Because in a different thread I said a stock R would have a better power to weight than the new 1299 R FE which you pulled me up on. While I accepted you were right it made me question it and the figures as quoted by Ducati.

I went back and checked. They've downgraded the whole lot which seems a little odd to me but they can't change the hard copies of their own catalogue.

Bottom line is they've sold thousands of bikes on false information.

Mutt1979 said:

Because in a different thread I said a stock R would have a better power to weight than the new 1299 R FE which you pulled me up on. While I accepted you were right it made me question it and the figures as quoted by Ducati.

I went back and checked. They've downgraded the whole lot which seems a little odd to me but they can't change the hard copies of their own catalogue.

Bottom line is they've sold thousands of bikes on false information.

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OEM quoted base numbers should always be taken with a grain of salt. Ducati is one of the worst offenders. Most OEM's parasitic loss is around 10%. Ducati is closer to 15%. My 1299S only made 177hp before mods. I don't think it's going to make any less now that Ducati corrected it's numbers.

Mutt, have you ever put your bike on a dyno?

Rogue said:

OEM quoted base numbers should always be taken with a grain of salt. Ducati is one of the worst offenders. Most OEM's parasitic loss is around 10%. Ducati is closer to 15%. My 1299S only made 177hp before mods. I don't think it's going to make any less now that Ducati corrected it's numbers.

Mutt, have you ever put your bike on a dyno?

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I get all that, I acknowledged it in my opening statement. My point is how can they so brazenly go back and just down grade all their figures? What like hoping no one notices? Hoping to sell more 1299 R's because they are better than the current R only by down grading it.

My point, and yours, still stands. They are selling bikes by cooking the numbers, and not just a little bit.

Mutt1979 said:

My point, and yours, still stands. They are selling bikes by cooking the numbers, and not just a little bit.

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Welcome to the world of motorcycle sales my friend.

Remember when Yamaha said the new '06 R6 red lined at 17,500 RPM? They had to retract that pretty quick.

Rogue said:

Welcome to the world of motorcycle sales my friend.

Remember when Yamaha said the new '06 R6 red lined at 17,500 RPM? They had to retract that pretty quick.

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At least they were gracious enough to retract it.

That being said, it could mean that the 1299 FE is a better motorcycle that I first thought?

Mutt1979 said:

I get all that, I acknowledged it in my opening statement. My point is how can they so brazenly go back and just down grade all their figures? What like hoping no one notices? Hoping to sell more 1299 R's because they are better than the current R only by down grading it.

My point, and yours, still stands. They are selling bikes by cooking the numbers, and not just a little bit.

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Advertised power outputs don't necessarily give an honest indication of true or actual output, whatever the manufacturer has or is now quoting, since in most cases, no two engines are the same. Whatever Ducati quote, your bike dynoed and tuned to suit (taking into consideration the exhaust system and air filter in use), would likely claw back some of the "losses" from the originally advertised figure to the one they now claim the engine makes.

As has been said on here already, it won't change what your own bike actually puts out at the rear wheel, which might be a lot healthier than the 15% typical loss you'd expect to see from the headline numbers. There are huge variances from one dyno to another but as long as your engine is working at it's optimal best, then you can't improve or expect much beyond that. You've a lovely bike there Mutt. Enjoy it. If current 1098R values are anything to go by, you might even want to consider it as a longer term investment. 35K for a clean example apparently!

Mutt1979 said:

At least they were gracious enough to retract it.

That being said, it could mean that the 1299 FE is a better motorcycle that I first thought?

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That's in the eye of the beholder imo. HP isn't at the top of my list when considering a bike. For other people, it's the #1 determining factor.

Perosnally, the FE doesn't do it for me.

topolino said:

Advertised power outputs don't necessarily give an honest indication of true or actual output, whatever the manufacturer has or is now quoting, since in most cases, no two engines are the same. Whatever Ducati quote, your bike dynoed and tuned to suit (taking into consideration the exhaust system and air filter in use), would likely claw back some of the "losses" from the originally advertised figure to the one they now claim the engine makes.

As has been said on here already, it won't change what your own bike actually puts out at the rear wheel, which might be a lot healthier than the 15% typical loss you'd expect to see from the headline numbers. There are huge variances from one dyno to another but as long as your engine is working at it's optimal best, then you can't improve or expect much beyond that. You've a lovely bike there Mutt. Enjoy it. If current 1098R values are anything to go by, you might even want to consider it as a longer term investment. 35K for a clean example apparently!

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Again I know this.......... Perhaps being owned by VW has rubbed off on them?!

Yes, the R is a keeper

Ducati 1199 Panigale R MK2 BRAND NEW | eBay

Mutt, i agree. You were sold on the premise of one thing and well, that was a lie. The fact that someone stated that bikes usually lose 10% and yet ducati lose 15% shows that they fluff the number. Ducati wouldn't be losing 15% but maybe more like 10% if they actually gave accurate figures to begin with.

I know when i bought my bike, it was hailed as one of the lightest and most HP bikes on the market (best HP to weight at the time) NOW it may not be that. Hell, maybe the dry weight was wrong also... (really could care less but i agree its the principle of the matter)

I wouldnt be shocked if a class action suit didnt come from this to be honest... some people wanted the most HP etc etc and now that it has come back they false advertised, these people will push the case

I bought the R because it was light weight, I couldn't afford the SL and I was seriously tired of hustling my RC51 "the albino rhino" around my home track.

lamb00j said:

Mutt, i agree. You were sold on the premise of one thing and well, that was a lie. The fact that someone stated that bikes usually lose 10% and yet ducati lose 15% shows that they fluff the number. Ducati wouldn't be losing 15% but maybe more like 10% if they actually gave accurate figures to begin with.

I know when i bought my bike, it was hailed as one of the lightest and most HP bikes on the market (best HP to weight at the time) NOW it may not be that. Hell, maybe the dry weight was wrong also... (really could care less but i agree its the principle of the matter)

I wouldnt be shocked if a class action suit didnt come from this to be honest... some people wanted the most HP etc etc and now that it has come back they false advertised, these people will push the case

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To anyone considering it I'd say "good luck with that" To start the litigation process, you'll need a truck load of money to get them into court and you would have to contest with the fact that at the time of purchase the figures were (they will claim) correct based on the measurement techniques used at the time. As a manufacturer, they have the right to change these figures at will, if later found to be inaccurate. As long as they can show that they did not misprepresent the bike (if they knowingly had an alternative more accurate way to measure engine output at the time of sale) then they are squeaky clean sadly. What's more you'll pay their legal fees as well as your own if you lose. Happy hunting.

I think too many are getting hung up on specific dyno numbers. Different dynos on different days depending on the weather will give different numbers. Correction factors only go so far. These are 200 hp bikes no matter how you look at it. The best comparison is to run the bikes on the same dyno with the same weather conditions. I see nothing wrong with what Ducati did. The FE makes 12 hp more but weighs the same vs the standard 1299. Is it worth $10+K more? I don't think so and I'm puzzled by Ducati's pricing on it because it's not limited. They probably built rebates in it. The bike would be a little more compelling if it had cruise control and heated grips.