If I knew then what I know now

This thread blew up like a bad case of herpes.
I'm with ya Mark! Although I LOVE my R.

White13Pani said:

This thread blew up like a bad case of herpes.
I'm with ya Mark! Although I LOVE my R.

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i love my bike too just the headaches i wish i didnt have

Duck41 said:

So essentially you're saying that if you purchase a Panigale and experience issues then you are not getting what you paid for, but if you purchase another brand bike at a cheaper price (like the BMW you referenced in the original post) and experience issues then you are at least getting what you paid for because of the lower price. This seems illogical unless the higher price is directly tied to some kind of guarantee. I really find it hard to believe that anyone uses the lower price of competing brand bikes to justify the possibility of experiencing issues. Whether you spend $15k or $30k, there is always the hope that the vehicle fuctions correctly, but the price point does not absolve the owner from the possibility of issues arising.

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Ferrari customers can relate. Ferrari issues 458 Italia recall - BBC Top Gear
They have since realized that Corvettes are nearly as good for a heck of a lot less. Plus they can get them custom painted Ferrari red. Lol

I would like to say that I am sympathetic to Mark's situation, but there are countless examples of Panigale owners not experiencing any major issues, including myself. Heck, one of our very own members documented his entire tour across the country on one of these bikes and didn't experience any extreme issues along the way despite the bike occasionally being used in unconventional ways. This isn't to say issues couldn't occur for any of us at some point, but isn't the risk of experiencing mechanical issues the case with owning any mechanical device? The price of the bike is not tied to a guarantee of a problem free ownership experience, and unless yours was then as long as you still have your bike, you are getting what you paid for.

In a perfect world you would be able to know the complete cost of ownership up front and then cost it over years of ownership. Part of the "cost" is made up of customer service and warranties. It is very difficult to calculate these factors on a first model year bike. Many of the other ownership factors are purely subjective.

That being the case, I can relate to why Mark feels like he has paid too much. The 1199 is already a bit of a $tretch, compared with the BMW, but if you add his list of problems into the equation it can fast become a deal breaker.

I guess my question is, if Mark had the same experiences with both brands which one would he FEEL more satisfaction from? Would it justify the $5000 premium? In the end, even without trouble, it is a question that only he can answer.

2013RedSabs said:

In a perfect world you would be able to know the complete cost of ownership up front and then cost it over years of ownership. Part of the "cost" is made up of customer service and warranties. It is very difficult to calculate these factors on a first model year bike. Many of the other ownership factors are purely subjective.

That being the case, I can relate to why Mark feels like he has paid too much. The 1199 is already a bit of a $tretch, compared with the BMW, but if you add his list of problems into the equation it can fast become a deal breaker.

I guess my question is, if Mark had the same experiences with both brands which one would he FEEL more satisfaction from? Would it justify the $5000 premium? In the end, even without trouble, it is a question that only he can answer.

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And he will never be able to truthfully answer, given that he has appeared to have developed prejudices.

I understand Marks frustration but his issues are rather small (IMO) compared to what the BMW was going through since they first debuted the bike and up to now. Each issued he had should have been taken care of by warranty except the aftermarket part and even I believe my dealer would of warranty the installation of the rearset unless I installed it myself. I have had a couple of fairing bolts lost and replaced for free by my dealer since then blue lock tight became part of my tools. The soft clear coat on the tank can be an issue but I buff it out every now and then and put a coat of hard wax on and problem solved. The problems I call small may not be to some and they are irritating has hell I know but I personally know a buddy who rode his s1000RR on a long ride with us and his bike fell over due to the kick stand coming apart when we stopped for lunch. His dealer did not warranty the problem and he had to pay for the fixes himself until the recall was issued and even then they argued about the aftermarket parts that got damaged. He had a period where he could not ride his bike until they fixed the engine issue another friend wasn't so lucky he was one of them who blew his engine on the first lap at the track. Eventually both of them got their bike fixed under warranty but it did take a while and they felt the same as Mark but they were saying I should of spent the extra money to get the 1199. They both traded their bikes in one got an 1199R and he loves it and the other who is a BMW loyalist and my neighbor he had the s100RR 10, 11, 12 and now he has a HP4 and he still throws tools around the shop and loves to ride my bike but wont admit it that he likes the 1199 better. Its seems my friend on the 13 RSV4 factory has no issues at all so far.

When they give you the bag with all the Ducati documents they really should give you a bottle of free Locktite blue !....I was riding down the road yesterday and 2nd to 3rd was a real pain and it kicked out of gear twice, then it felt mushy going into first. I pulled over and inspected the shifter linkage, and of course, the main bolt was completely out and only still held in because a pressure fitting runs right in front of it (going into an elbow on the tranny)...hand tightened, and made it home. Then locktite came out. Not even remotely surprising or distressing.

I wish I was good with photoshop, I would superimpose a Ducati logo, and name, on a bottle of Locktite blue and post it

HP4 owner so feel free to hate. But here are the issues I've had so far:

• Right multifunction switch started to fail (warranty repaired in less than 1 hour on appointment)
• Left multifunction switch intermittently failing (already agreed warranty replacement next time I'm at the dealer)
• A horrendous (to me) rattle from the front fairing at exactly 3k RPM that was noted during the switch replacement but not found (service department needs the bike for at least 1 day to find it)
• A metallic rattle I also had on my 2011 s1k which is believed to be caused by the steering lock
• False neutrals and popping back into neutral going from 1st to 2nd if not shifted assertively
• Quick shifter occasionally cuts power for a measurable amount of time while shifting 1st to 2nd (can't reliably replicate)
• Annoying gap between passenger seat cowl and rear fairing (minimized by removing some washers but still visible)
• Heated grips on high cause SIGNIFICANT battery drain if the ignition is on but engine not running (causes hard, unreliable start after 2 minutes)

Mechanically, there are annoyances but nothing signifcant except the shifting. Riding street on a commute, not a massive issue. But I've had the 1st -> 2nd -> Neutral once while accelerating extremely aggressively. And it overwhelmed the slipper clutch when it did (along with giving me the shakes for a minute). There are aftermarket mods to address this but I haven't decided which to try.

So there are issues on my side of the pond. The steering lock rattle, shifting and the multifunction switch problems are fairly widespread. BMW has been changing the switch manufacturers like underwear trying to address the evident QC problem. My dealer didn't even ask for proof or bother try to replicate it. Just booked the appt and swapped it out. Oh and when brand new, finding neutral may require GPS coordinates and Google Maps. It's really hard to find

Kuroshio said:

HP4 owner so feel free to hate. But here are the issues I've had so far:

• Right multifunction switch started to fail (warranty repaired in less than 1 hour on appointment)
• Left multifunction switch intermittently failing (already agreed warranty replacement next time I'm at the dealer)
• A horrendous (to me) rattle from the front fairing at exactly 3k RPM that was noted during the switch replacement but not found (service department needs the bike for at least 1 day to find it)
• A metallic rattle I also had on my 2011 s1k which is believed to be caused by the steering lock
• False neutrals and popping back into neutral going from 1st to 2nd if not shifted assertively
• Quick shifter occasionally cuts power for a measurable amount of time while shifting 1st to 2nd (can't reliably replicate)
• Annoying gap between passenger seat cowl and rear fairing (minimized by removing some washers but still visible)
• Heated grips on high cause SIGNIFICANT battery drain if the ignition is on but engine not running (causes hard, unreliable start after 2 minutes)

Mechanically, there are annoyances but nothing signifcant except the shifting. Riding street on a commute, not a massive issue. But I've had the 1st -> 2nd -> Neutral once while accelerating extremely aggressively. And it overwhelmed the slipper clutch when it did (along with giving me the shakes for a minute). There are aftermarket mods to address this but I haven't decided which to try.

So there are issues on my side of the pond. The steering lock rattle, shifting and the multifunction switch problems are fairly widespread. BMW has been changing the switch manufacturers like underwear trying to address the evident QC problem. My dealer didn't even ask for proof or bother try to replicate it. Just booked the appt and swapped it out. Oh and when brand new, finding neutral may require GPS coordinates and Google Maps. It's really hard to find

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My Panigale thigh warmers have absolutely no battery drain when the bike is off, but take a few miles to heat up when its running

My nut roaster is working well
And no current draw on the battery.

Ducati technology rules.

Stw said:

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Why the surprise? That reads like most Pani lists, but slightly different.

- Melted fairings
- Left controls not working
- Dash fogging or on x dash due to multiple replacements resetting the mileage
- Bolts falling off
- Melted rear hugger (again with the heat on this bike)
- Burned legs
- Leaking valve covers
- False neutrals with quick shifter if not shifted aggressively
- Smoking on startup
- Stalling randomly

I am sure I am missing some, but I guess the take home message at the end of the day is that both bikes have the potential to have a number of issues so if you are thinking about one of them pray you don't get a Friday bike from either manufacturer.

Stw said:

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I know it seems like a laundry list of problems. But remember, I had a 2011 s1k before the HP4. So the steering lock rattle, switch problems (which I did not experience with the 2011) and the shifting issue I was expecting.

The front end rattle is either something that came loose or something got into the front cowl. I'd find it myself but if it is a warranty applicable issue (lost a bolt or something) I don't want to get into a debate about it. Otherwise, something getting into the fairing can happen to any bike.

None of the s1000rrs, standard or HP4 from any year, tolerate lazy shifting. You've got to shift with authority otherwise in the 1st - 2nd shift you might have a problem. Allegedly it'll loosen up overtime. But I only had 3k miles on the 2011 and have 3k on the HP4 so far. I rarely ever experience it, being used to the need for authority from my 2011.

The passenger seat cowl is a pure QC screw up. Someone with OCD will be driven insane by it or simply use the actual passenger seat instead. The heated grips issue I suspect is related to the left handgrip as I have evidence of a short present there. Sometimes a really good bump causes the highbeam to flash despite the switch being rock solid.

My dealer has been excellent for the most part, which is why these are minor annoyances. They repaired my 2011 after a lowside cracked the frame. Took a month, most of which was getting the frame from Germany. But when they handed the bike back it was impossible to tell it had been down. Had to remind the salesman when I traded it in. The switches just required an appointment and an hour. The front end rattle they didn't attempt to dismiss in any way, noting it on my service history that they experienced it and need time to find (removing parts 1 piece at a time to isolate it).

Overall I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase with zero regrets. I will give yall the nod though:

If I were shopping for a bike and had not had my experiences with the s1000rr, the 1199 Senna would be extremely strong competition. That is one beautiful bike.

Kuroshio said:

I know it seems like a laundry list of problems. But remember, I had a 2011 s1k before the HP4. So the steering lock rattle, switch problems (which I did not experience with the 2011) and the shifting issue I was expecting.

The front end rattle is either something that came loose or something got into the front cowl. I'd find it myself but if it is a warranty applicable issue (lost a bolt or something) I don't want to get into a debate about it. Otherwise, something getting into the fairing can happen to any bike.

None of the s1000rrs, standard or HP4 from any year, tolerate lazy shifting. You've got to shift with authority otherwise in the 1st - 2nd shift you might have a problem. Allegedly it'll loosen up overtime. But I only had 3k miles on the 2011 and have 3k on the HP4 so far. I rarely ever experience it, being used to the need for authority from my 2011.

The passenger seat cowl is a pure QC screw up. Someone with OCD will be driven insane by it or simply use the actual passenger seat instead. The heated grips issue I suspect is related to the left handgrip as I have evidence of a short present there. Sometimes a really good bump causes the highbeam to flash despite the switch being rock solid.

My dealer has been excellent for the most part, which is why these are minor annoyances. They repaired my 2011 after a lowside cracked the frame. Took a month, most of which was getting the frame from Germany. But when they handed the bike back it was impossible to tell it had been down. Had to remind the salesman when I traded it in. The switches just required an appointment and an hour. The front end rattle they didn't attempt to dismiss in any way, noting it on my service history that they experienced it and need time to find (removing parts 1 piece at a time to isolate it).

Overall I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase with zero regrets. I will give yall the nod though:

If I were shopping for a bike and had not had my experiences with the s1000rr, the 1199 Senna would be extremely strong competition. That is one beautiful bike.

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Too bad it won't be released in the states. 161 of them being made and shipped straight to Brazil. You could always customize a "primered" Pani S to replicate the Senna though

Kuroshio said:

HP4 owner so feel free to hate. But here are the issues I've had so far:

• Right multifunction switch started to fail (warranty repaired in less than 1 hour on appointment)
• Left multifunction switch intermittently failing (already agreed warranty replacement next time I'm at the dealer)
• A horrendous (to me) rattle from the front fairing at exactly 3k RPM that was noted during the switch replacement but not found (service department needs the bike for at least 1 day to find it)
• A metallic rattle I also had on my 2011 s1k which is believed to be caused by the steering lock
• False neutrals and popping back into neutral going from 1st to 2nd if not shifted assertively
• Quick shifter occasionally cuts power for a measurable amount of time while shifting 1st to 2nd (can't reliably replicate)
• Annoying gap between passenger seat cowl and rear fairing (minimized by removing some washers but still visible)
• Heated grips on high cause SIGNIFICANT battery drain if the ignition is on but engine not running (causes hard, unreliable start after 2 minutes)

Mechanically, there are annoyances but nothing signifcant except the shifting. Riding street on a commute, not a massive issue. But I've had the 1st -> 2nd -> Neutral once while accelerating extremely aggressively. And it overwhelmed the slipper clutch when it did (along with giving me the shakes for a minute). There are aftermarket mods to address this but I haven't decided which to try.

So there are issues on my side of the pond. The steering lock rattle, shifting and the multifunction switch problems are fairly widespread. BMW has been changing the switch manufacturers like underwear trying to address the evident QC problem. My dealer didn't even ask for proof or bother try to replicate it. Just booked the appt and swapped it out. Oh and when brand new, finding neutral may require GPS coordinates and Google Maps. It's really hard to find

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Good luck Mark

The underlying point here is any sportbike can experience issues not as an inherent quality of its design or as a result of its manufacturer’s incompetence, but as a byproduct of the extreme conditions inflicted upon high performance vehicles. No manufacturer offers a guarantee against this because, as much as competing manufacturers would like you to believe their name is as good as a guarantee, it simply isn’t possible to eliminate this from occurring. Thus, the moral of the story is buy something you can see yourself being happy with despite the occasional mishap. If you like the BMW for its performance features, looks, price, etc. then go for it, but don’t allow yourself to be deceived into believing the bike will be immune to the occasional issue.

Duck, I pretty much agree with your assertions, except I would put it more like "Any top end sport bike can have problems."

The reason I say this is a reflection on my other bike. I just rode it, dropped it off for service and realized that since I bought it new (2007 GSXR 1000) that it has had absolutely zero problems, like none. I see it as a top contender bike, but just not a superbike like what we all own. I actually enjoy riding it when I am just not in the mood for my temperamental Panigale. I mean honestly, it sits low, wide seated stance on the legs, does NOT get hot, wrists dont hurt, balance is very nice since its so low, corners almost as good as Panigale, shifts with no attitude, still a 10 second bike...Basically I ride it when I need a break. BUT, I totally love the Panigale. In my mind they each have a purpose for me, and I would not sell either one of them, ever. Just a pain in the ass fitting a bottle of Locktite in the tail section of the 1199.

And...forgetting I dont have a quick shifter on it is amusing when the shift light is screaming at me and I cant get it to upshift..oh yeah, gotta use clutch.

NOLA said:

Duck, I pretty much agree with your assertions, except I would put it more like "Any top end sport bike can have problems."

The reason I say this is a reflection on my other bike. I just rode it, dropped it off for service and realized that since I bought it new (2007 GSXR 1000) that it has had absolutely zero problems, like none. I see it as a top contender bike, but just not a superbike like what we all own. I actually enjoy riding it when I am just not in the mood for my temperamental Panigale. I mean honestly, it sits low, wide seated stance on the legs, does NOT get hot, wrists dont hurt, balance is very nice since its so low, corners almost as good as Panigale, shifts with no attitude, still a 10 second bike...Basically I ride it when I need a break. BUT, I totally love the Panigale. In my mind they each have a purpose for me, and I would not sell either one of them, ever. Just a pain in the ass fitting a bottle of Locktite in the tail section of the 1199.

And...forgetting I dont have a quick shifter on it is amusing when the shift light is screaming at me and I cant get it to upshift..oh yeah, gotta use clutch.

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There's enough room for the little bottles in there

mark419ny said:

Ahh the old hindsight is 20/20. I speak to a lot of 1199 owners on here and in person privately and I get the same reaction. The forum just masks excuses for Ducati cause people don't want to admit a 20k mistake but I'll be totally honest here and admit the 1199 was my biggest purchase mistake and the experience will keep me from ever purchasing a Ducati again. I have had old heat shield problems, new heat shield problems, a melting fairing, a melting rear hugger, bolts fly off, rear set swing arm problem ( although that is an aftermarket purchase), signal issue and paint problem. I have the bike since June 2012. Problem is in the first 2 years you can't get rid of the bike you lose too much.

The reaction to every person I ask is the same a wincing like pain reaction. What do you think of the bike. I get well and a face like you have stomach cramps saying its good but....

I am also a member of the s1000rr forum. I can tell you these complaints are not really posted. Neither are they on the r1 forum. I know it happens to all makes but nothing is like it is with the 1199. I think what could have been if Ducati actually thought things through. With the most amazing looking bike yet you have to spend 30k to get the kind of performance the base should have. Keep in mind you can get an hp4 for 20k which will stay with an r anytime and is the price of a base with a full system and it's a titanium full akra exhaust system far and a way better quality than termi.

This is what the 1199 should have been and the reviews it should get.

2013 BMW HP4 Onboard Video Review

I know this will get blasted but the next time you have a dash problem bolt problem or an oil leak or your decision is what to do about an extended warranty or it takes you 3 hours to change the oil and coolant remember this post.

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Had similar issues... Too many now to remember honestly. The ones I do recall I've listed below:
1. Dash/RHS indicator not working
2. RHS fairing melting
3. Replacement fairing completely different white to rest of the bike (This had to get colour matched and sprayed)
4. Bolt from gear lever dislodged leaving me stuck in 2nd gear (This happened on my first ride when I bought her brand new from the shop and took her home)
5. Water pump leaking
6. Head gasket leaking oil
7. Front Brake rotor bolts rusting

I've had her new since Feb 13. No joke there would be at least another three to four issues that I just can't recall. She spent more time back at the shop getting all the above repaired under warranty. At this rate as much as I love her I do plan to sell her after the warranty period expires.

Thankfully I haven't had any recent issues for a while.

Strangely I would still get another Ducati after all that though.