Interesting Tuning Thread

[wmcdonal]

Phil.

If I did not reply to questions on a thread, it is because I did not see them.
If this is something that needs answering you should re-post the questions here or put a link to the other thread.

 

[Stw]

My question would be this...

Is the point of the TB tune on the 1199 to add smoothness and some extra functions..ie Cruise Control etc.... or should we expect some power gains too??

 

[Pouakai]

My question would be this...

Is the point of the TB tune on the 1199 to add smoothness and some extra functions..ie Cruise Control etc.... or should we expect some power gains too??

Well my take on it would be that since it gives you full control of the fuel and ignition maps then you have it in your hands to bring out the maximum potential of your specific hardware. Although that is probably only possible if you work with an experienced dyno tuner, and for the sake of efficiency preferably one who knows the TB product.
If you are looking to simply upload someone else's maps then it's mostly chance if it's better than factory but with a nod in the yes direction if the new map isn't concerned with emissions regulations.

I read somewhere a comment saying the 2012 race ECU had significantly more aggressive performance than standard but that the performance gap to the 2013 race ECU was greater again !! So if we have full control over the fuel and ign I see no reason why one could not make the same difference using (for e.g) the TB system.

P

 

[wmcdonal]

I think it is unfortunate that magazines put so much emphasis on peak HP numbers.
In reality a few more or less HP way up in the rev range will not be noticed by most riders.
Smooth power delivery in the low to mid throttle range will improve the experience for all riders and will be noticed.

I think that many people do not understand the role that the O2 sensors play in a closed loop system.

The output of the O2 sensors is a voltage up to around 1.2 volts, this voltage changes with exhaust gas temp and O2 content in the gas.
The output of the sensor will swing from around .22 volts to .9 volts as the A/F ratio moves from above 14.5/1 to below 14.5/1.
This means the sensor is good for showing the ECU if it is above or below 14.5/1 but it can not show how far over or under.

The ECU uses a single trim value (per cylinder) when running in the closed loop area, it checks the output of the sensor and adds fuel if it is below .45 volts and subtracts fuel if it is over .45 volts. The fuel is incremented in 1% lots.

In an ideal world (and probably the bike sent for testing) the fuel tables have been set so the bike runs at 14.5/1 over the entire closed loop area. In this case the trims are valid as the bike moves from one map point to the next, the bike will run well enough and will have low emissions.

In reality the A/F ratio swings all over the place as the bike moves from map point to map point.
If one map point has the bike running rich of 14.5/1 the ECU will have applied a negative trim to bring the A/F down to 14.5/1.
If the motor now moves to a mapping point that results in a mixture that is leaner than 14.5/1 the negative trim being applied will push the A/F even leaner.
This is the reason some bikes run better than others, some are closer to the benchmark bike that was used for testing.
The 14.5/1 A/F is so close to the lean miss-fire point that the O2 trims will often cause rough running due to miss-fires.
Turning the O2 sensors off and tuning the low throttle area makes a huge difference to the running of the motor.
The bigger the pistons the bigger the problem. As you all know the Pani has the biggest pistons.

Ignition advance is another issue.
By running less ignition advance at low throttle the fuel mixture will still be burning as the exhaust valve opens.
This burning mixture helps keep exhaust gas temp up and keeps the cat hot.
The SAI adds air to the exhaust system to help burn the leftover fuel.
This is all great for reducing the emissions but it does not help fuel economy, power delivery or exhaust system heat.
Fixing the ignition advance, turning off SAI and adding a little fuel will help to keep the engine temp down and to reduce exhaust gas temp.

I do very few full throttle runs on the dyno, instead I spend 90% of the tuning time in the part of the map that sees 90% of the riding time.

 

[Trauma]

I think it is unfortunate that magazines put so much emphasis on peak HP numbers.
In reality a few more or less HP way up in the rev range will not be noticed by most riders.
Smooth power delivery in the low to mid throttle range will improve the experience for all riders and will be noticed.

I think that many people do not understand the role that the O2 sensors play in a closed loop system.

The output of the O2 sensors is a voltage up to around 1.2 volts, this voltage changes with exhaust gas temp and O2 content in the gas.
The output of the sensor will swing from around .22 volts to .9 volts as the A/F ratio moves from above 14.5/1 to below 14.5/1.
This means the sensor is good for showing the ECU if it is above or below 14.5/1 but it can not show how far over or under.

The ECU uses a single trim value (per cylinder) when running in the closed loop area, it checks the output of the sensor and adds fuel if it is below .45 volts and subtracts fuel if it is over .45 volts. The fuel is incremented in 1% lots.

In an ideal world (and probably the bike sent for testing) the fuel tables have been set so the bike runs at 14.5/1 over the entire closed loop area. In this case the trims are valid as the bike moves from one map point to the next, the bike will run well enough and will have low emissions.

In reality the A/F ratio swings all over the place as the bike moves from map point to map point.
If one map point has the bike running rich of 14.5/1 the ECU will have applied a negative trim to bring the A/F down to 14.5/1.
If the motor now moves to a mapping point that results in a mixture that is leaner than 14.5/1 the negative trim being applied will push the A/F even leaner.
This is the reason some bikes run better than others, some are closer to the benchmark bike that was used for testing.
The 14.5/1 A/F is so close to the lean miss-fire point that the O2 trims will often cause rough running due to miss-fires.
Turning the O2 sensors off and tuning the low throttle area makes a huge difference to the running of the motor.
The bigger the pistons the bigger the problem. As you all know the Pani has the biggest pistons.

Ignition advance is another issue.
By running less ignition advance at low throttle the fuel mixture will still be burning as the exhaust valve opens.
This burning mixture helps keep exhaust gas temp up and keeps the cat hot.
The SAI adds air to the exhaust system to help burn the leftover fuel.
This is all great for reducing the emissions but it does not help fuel economy, power delivery or exhaust system heat.
Fixing the ignition advance, turning off SAI and adding a little fuel will help to keep the engine temp down and to reduce exhaust gas temp.

I do very few full throttle runs on the dyno, instead I spend 90% of the tuning time in the part of the map that sees 90% of the riding time.

That's a good overview, but could you please be more specifc?

Awesome, can't wait for our version.

 

[WAfatboy]

So I've asked the question and so have a couple of others as above, regarding HP.

I completely get that smooth deliver is very important but ultimately if I'm chucking a new race pipe at this thing I want to know what extra HP and TQ I can liberate. My Harley was tuned with a PC V and had more HP, TQ and was more rideable, much better fuelling low down.

So let me rephrase this question so its a YES or NO answer.

Will my tech be able to liberate as much or more HP using Tunesboy software as he would fitting a module like Rapidbike or PC V?

 

[Phl]

Phil.

If I did not reply to questions on a thread, it is because I did not see them.
If this is something that needs answering you should re-post the questions here or put a link to the other thread.

i was just asking about a status update on the project. the mods you describe are veeery interesting!

 

[wmcdonal]

I completely get that smooth deliver is very important but ultimately if I'm chucking a new race pipe at this thing I want to know what extra HP and TQ I can liberate. My Harley was tuned with a PC V and had more HP, TQ and was more rideable, much better fuelling low down.

So let me rephrase this question so its a YES or NO answer.

Will my tech be able to liberate as much or more HP using Tunesboy software as he would fitting a module like Rapidbike or PC V?

Sorry, it is not a yes or no answer.

You are asking me to tell you if a pipe you have bought for your bike will give more HP ?

I said in a previous post that the bike I used for testing only had low mileage and I only tuned up to 40% throttle, I thought that answered the question.
I also said that the piggyback computers cannot change the throttle translate tables.
That means you will be using the following throttle table if you have not purchased the up-map stick from Ducati.

Ducati think it is worth opening the throttle earlied when you put the slip on or full system on the bike.
This image shows the throttle table for the slip on and full system.

I am not going to make claims that I cannot back up with data, I am sure you can find someone to tell you what you want to hear about the RapidBike or PCV.
I know one guy from a dyno in Sydney told a racer that he had to fit a PowerCommander to a bike that had a Motec ECU, he said it would get more power with the PC fitted. Perhaps it tells you more about the dyno operator than the tuning tool.

Perhaps the question you should be asking is "Why would one method of adjusting the fuel delivery give more power than another".

I know that adding a Piggyback computer adds another point of failure.

I know the piggyback systems do not disable the O2 sensors, they do a very poor work around.

You may fit the pipe and find the A/F ratio is already good at full throttle, if this is the case you won't get any increase no matter what you use to adjust as it does not need adjusting.
You won't know until you fit the exhaust and get the bike on the dyno.

Has the pipe arrived yet ?

Have you made a date to get the bike tuned ?

 

[WAfatboy]

Sorry, it is not a yes or no answer.

You are asking me to tell you if a pipe you have bought for your bike will give more HP ?

I said in a previous post that the bike I used for testing only had low mileage and I only tuned up to 40% throttle, I thought that answered the question.
I also said that the piggyback computers cannot change the throttle translate tables.
That means you will be using the following throttle table if you have not purchased the up-map stick from Ducati.

Ducati think it is worth opening the throttle earlied when you put the slip on or full system on the bike.
This image shows the throttle table for the slip on and full system.

I am not going to make claims that I cannot back up with data, I am sure you can find someone to tell you what you want to hear about the RapidBike or PCV.
I know one guy from a dyno in Sydney told a racer that he had to fit a PowerCommander to a bike that had a Motec ECU, he said it would get more power with the PC fitted. Perhaps it tells you more about the dyno operator than the tuning tool.

Perhaps the question you should be asking is "Why would one method of adjusting the fuel delivery give more power than another".

I know that adding a Piggyback computer adds another point of failure.

I know the piggyback systems do not disable the O2 sensors, they do a very poor work around.

You may fit the pipe and find the A/F ratio is already good at full throttle, if this is the case you won't get any increase no matter what you use to adjust as it does not need adjusting.
You won't know until you fit the exhaust and get the bike on the dyno.

Has the pipe arrived yet ?

Have you made a date to get the bike tuned ?

I'm not asking whether the pipe will add more HP, I know it will, but I want a perspective on whether you think Tuneboy software will help get at least as much HP out of the engine/pipe combo as a piggy back unit like Rapidbike.

I'm not asking for a definitive number but rather: in your experience it is possible to achieve a similar result as a piggy back unit? (Accepting the negatives and just addressing the HP question)

Austin Racing showed that the pipe with no tune does add HP but a Rapid bike module achieved an additional 7hp over the pipe alone. Remember I'm not 'buying' Tuneboy, it is being used by Justin so I have nothing to lose and I can add a piggy back unit if required but I agree with you that it is a point of failure. (although unlikely)

Pipe is sitting in UPS depot in Perth so should arrive on Monday, will get it to Justin later in the week.

 

[wmcdonal]

Can you at least read my post, it appears that you have not.

If you don't trust your tuner you should buy the product you think will do the best job.

 

[WAfatboy]

I did read the post but I fear my understanding of mechanics and the internal combustion engine is somewhat lacking. It's not a matter of trust, and I'm not spoiling for a fight over this.

I'll post back how I get on.

 

[littlejohn]

I did read the post but I fear my understanding of mechanics and the internal combustion engine is somewhat lacking. It's not a matter of trust, and I'm not spoiling for a fight over this.

I'll post back how I get on.

I think what wmcdonal is trying to say is that a tune directly on the OE ECU is at least equal to or better than a piggy back.

Piggy backs are generally a poor mans alternative to remapping the OE ecu or getting an aftermarket standalone ecu.

 

[wmcdonal]

Anyone who tells you a Piggyback will give more power is a liar or a fool.
The big thing that piggyback computers have over reflashing the standard ECU is the ability to tune quickly (Because you can make changes without stopping the motor), the TuneBoy software lets you make changes without stopping the motor.
The screen shots of the throttle table difference (STD pipe map to Termi map) show that the Piggyback will have to try and make the power with less throttle than you can give with changes to the ECU.
The examples in the screen shots are what Ducati think is required.
They think the bike needs more throttle opening when a free flowing exhaust is fitted.

 

[WAfatboy]

That's more like it, now we're getting down to business

More next week

 

[wmcdonal]

The Panigale has very large throttle bodies.
Opening these fully at low RPM will give less power due to a lower velocity in the intake runner.
Finding the best value at any RPM is easy on our DynoDynamics dyno.
I simply bring up a history graph of HP, this shows a moving trace of HP over the last minute.
I open the throttle slowly until I see the value in the history graph top out and start to reduce, I back off to the point that it made the most HP and see what the throttle value is.
This becomes my max value for this RPM.
I repeat this through the low to mid RPM range and I can build a throttle position table that delivers the best power.

 

[littlejohn]

The Panigale has very large throttle bodies.
Opening these fully at low RPM will give less power due to a lower velocity in the intake runner.
Finding the best value at any RPM is easy on our DynoDynamics dyno.
I simply bring up a history graph of HP, this shows a moving trace of HP over the last minute.
I open the throttle slowly until I see the value in the history graph top out and start to reduce, I back off to the point that it made the most HP and see what the throttle value is.
This becomes my max value for this RPM.
I repeat this through the low to mid RPM range and I can build a throttle position table that delivers the best power.

do you save the original map and have the ability to reapply it if bike needs to go in for warranty?

 

[wmcdonal]

Standard maps are included.
You can reflash back to standard then back to modified as you see fit.

 

[Pouakai]

That does it ! Order's on the way !
;-)
P

 

[WAfatboy]

Standard maps are included.
You can reflash back to standard then back to modified as you see fit.

Mines been 'up-mapped' a couple of times now. Is it possible to save the current map that is on the bike rather than the standard one?

 

[wmcdonal]

When the Up-Map stick is used it simply sets a value in the internal EEProm to tell the ECU to use the slip-on or full system map.
Flashing the ECU does not change the Up-Map state as it is only the flash memory that is changed.