July 2013 Cycle World - BMWHP4 vs 1199R

I sold my S1000 rr as a result of the conrod bolt failure issue and la k of satisfaction from BMW . I bought a Panigale instead .

The BMW just isn't a booming 1200 cc V twin Ducati.....

Here what was said at the recent Austest 2013 group bike tests down here by Australian Motorcycle News,

" if you ride to tickle every sense you possess with a Motorcycle, the Ducati Panigale is the obvious choice in this group. Ex Aussie Suerbike champ Craig Coxhell grew horns out of his helmet every time he hopped on board, AMCN sub Boon could'nt stop talking about it and AMCN test rider David Watt had illegal thoughts bouncing around in his head at each twist of the key"

" it is the loudest bike of the group, insanely loud, with an evil bark that mixes high revs shriek with V twin rumble, and can be heard coming a mile away. It is also the lightest of the group and has an electronic package that rivals the other two ( RSV 4 and S1000RR)."

" It is the most narrow focused of the group .... But when caution is thrown to the wind and the red beast is wound up, it's wide bars oscillating in your hands and the two stroke like V twin, as it became to be known, is roaring beneath you, it adds a lot of Hyde to your Dr Jekyll"

" It feels alive in a way no others do... It's a bit un-Ducati like in some ways, in that it is a loud ruffian of a thing, and watching the effect it had on riders was amusing. It grabs you like few others, and backs it up with great forks , excellent electronics package and looks to die for."

" The Panigale lit people's passion the most, though it went both ways. Some couldn't get past it's quirks, others didn't care as long as they got to yank the throttle and listen to that engine and try and take the red devil to the edge. It's a polarising bike, but you will never forget the day you first rode one. "

Pretty much sums up why I love Ducati's...the testers really wanted to pick the BMW but most chose the Ducati as it was the one they admitted they would spend their money on. The Panigale went fractionally faster around the track, so it is hard to justify the "Panigale" is flawed rubbish some haters want to believe.

I expected this. The Pani is a great, fun, visceral bike but Ducati definitely need to do more development with it and to deny that is to wear rose tinted glasses. There's a lot of new tech in there which needs to bed down, as is the case with any new ideas (or is Ducati somehow immune to teething troubles?).

The HP4 is the same - they eventually got the engine right with the 2012 but the first attempt at the suspension isn't perfect by all accounts. The Aprilia refined it's electronics wih the 2013 but is now down on power next to the others. It's a constant carousel and right now I just can't jump on with the Pani until they sort out the issues.

I think the really interesting comparison will be the 2014 Pani / S1000RR / RSV4 models.

Hmmm what issues need addressing?

Of the HP4 and 1199S the Pani is still my favourite of the two. I've owned numerous Italian bikes so its easier for me to overlook the foibles of the Pani. That said the HP4 is a great bike and I'll be running them back to back on the track so I'll be able to get a true comparison. When we finally finish tuning the Pani and get the modified exhaust back on it will be a monster, especially with the 41T sprocket. I'm planning to keep the HP4 'stock'.

I bought both a 2013 S1000rr "not the HP4" and a 2013 1199r within a month of each other. The BMW is a great bike but the Panigale is more fun to ride for me. Even with it's higher in the rev range than 1198 torque curve its still pulls like a v-twin. I'm an ex MX and SX guy and this bikes power reminds me of them. Every time I crack the throttle a power wheelie ensues and manic acceleration follows. The Pani also looks better and sounds the tits

I don't care about 1/10ths of seconds here and there. This bike is FUN! That's all.

this is how flawed the concept is :

it puts a 53 year old, less then a total of 120 lap's tracking experience, of which 90 over 16 years ago in the very fast group at SPA in the first 13 laps he ever did there...and a more then decent 2:04 at Assen on only his 3 rd lap.. This without ever putting him in a situation just once and knowing where he let another 5 seconds lying about and not hitting the rev limiter once...

i'm sure the HP4 could perhaps do the same thing, but hell it doesn't do it any better and as we all look more at our bikes than ride them, the HP4 is a non issue for me...

and hey , let it be clear : once we're up there in SBK heaven, ZXR, GSXR,CBR,APE,HP4... they are all very very close when ridden well...

i am a self confessed ducatist.. never had anything else.. and frankly i don't care whatever the competition does... as they will never will tick any box apart from my 'sensible' box... and that is the only box i don't want ticked as i have to tick that one in almost any other aspect of my life..


of course the pani needs development... for me it is one great joy to be there an keep up with the developments.. it make me aware of what is happening, i learn indecent amounts on bikes and seeing the bike get better in my hands is pure joy... and even for less obsessed clients, the development has been intense... the first pani gave 165 rwhp, they re at 188 now and it's a diffferent bike... so i do think they are managing development well... as they have to keep longivity in check as well... 200bhp is not 170... just making it is like outerwordly..; making it reliable even more...

Here what was said at the recent Austest 2013 group bike tests down here by Australian Motorcycle News,

Please provide the exact date, volume(?) of this group test issue and I'll have family member pick it up and ship over. Thanks.

Kuroshio said:

Geez can't yall just say "nice bike just not for me"?

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You can't be serious, if you are you're looking forward to constant disappointment here. Afterall, this is a Panigale forum not a general motorcycle forum. Most members are crazy passionate about their bike, no room for objectivity here. Go see what they say about the Panigale on the S1000rr forum.

bronch said:

You can't be serious, if you are you're looking forward to constant disappointment here. Afterall, this is a Panigale forum not a general motorcycle forum. Most members are crazy passionate about their bike, no room for objectivity here. Go see what they say about the Panigale on the S1000rr forum.

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Its funny to me how fanboi from other site come hang out on this 1199 forums. Maybe they have hidden desire to have Pani?

bronch said:

You can't be serious, if you are you're looking forward to constant disappointment here. Afterall, this is a Panigale forum not a general motorcycle forum. Most members are crazy passionate about their bike, no room for objectivity here. Go see what they say about the Panigale on the S1000rr forum.

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youngR said:

Its funny to me how fanboi from other site come hang out on this 1199 forums. Maybe they have hidden desire to have Pani?

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*shrug* call me old school but seeing my first motorcycle forum is cbrforum, yeah I can be serious. I'm a mod there and don't ride a CBR. The main admin rides a friggin Nightrod now instead of a CBR. And being motorcycle enthusiasts, everyone is pretty much capable of saying "Nice ride"... with the occasional Gixxer joke

And youngR, if it was about being a fanboi I'd have corrected a couple misinformations in several places. But being old school as I am, I know good information can come from anywhere. So I look anywhere for it. Gear reviews, ideas to help diagnosing technical issue, RIDING SKILLS / TECHNIQUES, good pics / vids and general information.

But hey, I'm Old School. The biggest thing on my mind when I ride is "Why I Ride?". Not "What I Ride?". Here's a little reminder for those that forgot. I found it HERE and reshared it in several places

o#o Why Ride a Motorcycle? - YouTube

2 Wheels... 1 Family
CBR Forum - Enthusiast forums for Honda CBR Owners - View Profile: Kuroshio

Kuroshio said:

*shrug* call me old school but seeing my first motorcycle forum is cbrforum, yeah I can be serious. I'm a mod there and don't ride a CBR.

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I'm sure, but how can you be passionate about a cbr?

Just saying, it's not really a shocker that some people here aren't as objective as you would like.

bronch said:

I'm sure, but how can you be passionate about a cbr?

Just saying, it's not really a shocker that some people here aren't as objective as you would like.

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Would kinda be hard to describe. Kinda like asking a man to explain how he could be passionate about his wife after 10 year, 2 kids and +30 lbs.

Duke said:

With respect, this is a typical Ducatisti response. The BMWs didn't blow engines and they didn't fall over as a rule. When one or two instances came to the attention of BMW they quickly recalled them all and dealt with it promptly.

Ducati have yet to officially acknowledge there is a problem with the displays and the soft paint and the turn signals and the cutting out and the stability at high speeds and the...well you get the picture. I'm guessing there are far more S1000RRs out there with fewer reported problems. And as for the "experts" comment...nearly every review I have read, including by pro Ducati journos I respect and ex Ducati guys like Neil Hodgson say they are faster on the Beemer and that it is a better all round bike for street and track.

For the record I have not had any issues at all with my S1000RR (I did get the kick stand recall letter but my kick stand was fine and I only had the work done out of an abundance of caution). It doesn't get the heart pumping like an 1199 at road legal speeds but I have total confidence that it will not leave me stranded or cut out randomly at a red light, etc and pinned on the track it will blow past pretty much anything given the right rider.

Again, I love the Panigale but it is clearly a flawed concept in it's current conception and needs attention in a few key areas to make it compete in pro racing and on forecourts. I really hope Ducati succeed with it as I deeply want to buy one but want to do so in clear conscience.

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Not sure this is very fair...

Three S1000RR went bang spewing oil and engine parts on the track in one week while a friend of mine was at Aragon last year and BMW's response to the calibration error in their manufacturing process was awful. Initially denial, then inaction, followed by re-imposition of hard rev limits and then finally engines rebuilt by dealers rather than swap-outs for factory units. People see what they want to see when they look at these brands, BMW = German engineering excellence, Ducati = bikes built by lazy arm waving Italians featuring wobbly electrics.

You need to look past the stereotypes.

PaddockStand said:

Not sure this is very fair...

Three S1000RR went bang spewing oil and engine parts on the track in one week while a friend of mine was at Aragon last year and BMW's response to the calibration error in their manufacturing process was awful. Initially denial, then inaction, followed by re-imposition of hard rev limits and then finally engines rebuilt by dealers rather than swap-outs for factory units. People see what they want to see when they look at these brands, BMW = German engineering excellence, Ducati = bikes built by lazy arm waving Italians featuring wobbly electrics.

You need to look past the stereotypes.

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This is exactly why I got rid of mine . I was no longer allowed to race it so missed two rounds of my series then rather than replace the motor they wanted it pulled down by some local inexperienced techs .
I didn't want to race a bike like that and after two months and no action I bought the Ducati

PaddockStand said:

Not sure this is very fair...

Three S1000RR went bang spewing oil and engine parts on the track in one week while a friend of mine was at Aragon last year and BMW's response to the calibration error in their manufacturing process was awful. Initially denial, then inaction, followed by re-imposition of hard rev limits and then finally engines rebuilt by dealers rather than swap-outs for factory units. People see what they want to see when they look at these brands, BMW = German engineering excellence, Ducati = bikes built by lazy arm waving Italians featuring wobbly electrics.

You need to look past the stereotypes.

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I'll take that one one the chin and agree I have a degree of that. However, I did ask at the dealer about questionable Italian electrics and was told "maybe 15 years ago but not now" and all I see is turn signal issues, displays crapping out more than once, etc. I am hopeful Audi will sort out the quality issues so I can get into the brand without too much worry. In it's current iteration the BMW is very reliable and I think the extra years warranty adds to that image. The Pani made me smile the moment I got on it but it would piss me off no end if I dropped $20k+ on a bike and had the type of issues people are seeing on here. I know it's part of the ownership experience but nowadays it shouldn't be.

I'll also add the quality of dealership to my stereotypical outlook. My BMW dealer is "no problem", no appointment, test ride it as long as you want, extra curricular events to engender ownership camaraderie and working with me on price, finance and trade values. My Ducati dealers are all "it's a Ducati", take it or leave it.

FrostyFire said:

How many times are we going to have this stupid Panigale vs something else argument on a Panigale forum? Honestly, go buy that other bike if you like it so much and stfu about it, so I don't have to log on here and read this ..... It's taking precious time away from reading up on the AR exhaust around here .

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Hint: there's a clue in the thread title. Don't like it? Don't click it. That'll save time for reading helpful AR threads.

Kuroshio said:

*shrug* call me old school but seeing my first motorcycle forum is cbrforum, yeah I can be serious. I'm a mod there and don't ride a CBR. The main admin rides a friggin Nightrod now instead of a CBR. And being motorcycle enthusiasts, everyone is pretty much capable of saying "Nice ride"... with the occasional Gixxer joke

And youngR, if it was about being a fanboi I'd have corrected a couple misinformations in several places. But being old school as I am, I know good information can come from anywhere. So I look anywhere for it. Gear reviews, ideas to help diagnosing technical issue, RIDING SKILLS / TECHNIQUES, good pics / vids and general information.

But hey, I'm Old School. The biggest thing on my mind when I ride is "Why I Ride?". Not "What I Ride?". Here's a little reminder for those that forgot. I found it HERE and reshared it in several places

o#o Why Ride a Motorcycle? - YouTube

2 Wheels... 1 Family
CBR Forum - Enthusiast forums for Honda CBR Owners - View Profile: Kuroshio

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Agree. I ride my HD every day and Ducati for fun days. I am on the same boat and I appreciate all manufactures and their uniqueness.

Its the different brands making the better bikes to compete with each other, which at the end, the customers benefit from.

And other Non-Ducati owners coming here to get info like you said and etc is all good, but there are people here who dont have any basis or facts to put down 1199s.

FrostyFire said:

How many times are we going to have this stupid Panigale vs something else argument on a Panigale forum? Honestly, go buy that other bike if you like it so much and stfu about it, so I don't have to log on here and read this ..... It's taking precious time away from reading up on the AR exhaust around here .

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What would you like to talk about ?

Scan of the rest of the article, lap times, etc please?