New Racing Gearbox announced for the 2023 V4R

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To retrofit this new drum selector will be a bear. It’s not a simple drop in. From what I’ve seen, you‘ll have to get into the bottom end to exchange it.

Current PV4 probably has 1-2 more years in it if it follows the same trend as previous Panigale models. I mean we haven’t even gotten to the Final Edition which lasts for 2 years haha!

1299 Released 2015, R 2015, End 2020 (FE 2018-2020)
V4 (rev 1) Released 2018, R 2019
V4 (rev 2) Released 2020, no new R model
V4 (rev 3) Released 2022, R 2023
 
SuperDomestique said:
To retrofit this new drum selector will be a bear. It’s not a simple drop in. From what I’ve seen, you‘ll have to get into the bottom end to exchange it.

Current PV4 probably has 1-2 more years in it if it follows the same trend as previous Panigale models. I mean we haven’t even gotten to the Final Edition which lasts for 2 years haha!

1299 Released 2015, R 2015, End 2020 (FE 2018-2020)
V4 (rev 1) Released 2018, R 2019
V4 (rev 2) Released 2020, no new R model
V4 (rev 3) Released 2022, R 2023
Click to expand...
+Nova said they could do it as I posted and if it is going in 23 R it should fit previous V4.
+I think 24 R will be same as 23 R but be designated FE
+All new V4 will follow in an over lapping way, which happened in he V2/V4 transfer
 
KarlKani said:
+Nova said they could do it as I posted and if it is going in 23 R it should fit previous V4.
+I think 24 R will be same as 23 R but be designated FE
+All new V4 will follow in an over lapping way, which happened in he V2/V4 transfer
Click to expand...

Anything is possible. Just depends how much money you’d want to chuck at the problem.

You’d need to send your engine or split your case and send them the bottom end with gears across the pond. Considering it costs $75 to send a 4 lb package to Italy, you’ll be spending at least a few to several hundo just on shipping back and forth.

+ Shift drum selector and forks are the same from 2019-22 between all models
- When/how much is this new selector drum? And is Ducati putting together a kit that sorts out the electronics too

Ideally you could knock the pin (17) out releasing the shift forks and pull out the drum selector. I’m not sure that’s feasible since the forks would drop into the bottom end when the pins are removed and considering they specify sending crankcases (not sure why they specify both cases as you should be able to get away w the lower one and just use the gearbox install tool to hold everything in place).

1674777003583.png


1674777309231.png


Hate to be a realist but I’d assume this would cost in the realm of $10k to do IF Ducati supplies the kit and more if you’d have Nova engineer a solution.
 
KarlKani said:
+I think 24 R will be same as 23 R but be designated FE
Click to expand...

FE, as in Final Edition? Final Edition of what I wonder--final edition R with a SSSA? Final Edition of the current generation Panigale? Certainly not final R ever made.
 
As for my gut feeling on the new revision of the V4, the 2024 will focus either on better air flow through the heads and therefore cleaner burning/higher power to meet Euro5/6 emissions. Or (and this is a pipe dream) I’d love to see them engineer a “seamless gearbox” using a small electric motor/battery to “torque fill” in between shifts (like the McLaren P1)
 
SuperDomestique said:
As for my gut feeling on the new revision of the V4, the 2024 will focus either on better air flow through the heads and therefore cleaner burning/higher power to meet Euro5/6 emissions. Or (and this is a pipe dream) I’d love to see them engineer a “seamless gearbox” using a small electric motor/battery to “torque fill” in between shifts (like the McLaren P1)
Click to expand...
It’s my understanding the e-motor torque fill in the P1 was used to compensate for turbo lag - irrelevant to a normally aspirated motor.
 
craig bush said:
It’s my understanding the e-motor torque fill in the P1 was used to compensate for turbo lag - irrelevant to a normally aspirated motor.
Click to expand...

True but it‘s not irrelevant if you want to covert a normal gearbox to a seamless gearbox that’s durable and uses existing parts and technology so it doesn’t break the bank (homologation cost for a bike is ~$45k, a GP seamless gearbox cost 300k euro back in 2015). In fact, it’s not a novel idea to torque fill in between gear changes. GM and Ford have patents on this. Considering Ducati is entering e-bike racing it wouldn‘t be a stretch and is a logical step in progression. As long as Ducati could tip-toe around existing patents, it seams quite feasible ;)
 
SuperDomestique said:
True but it‘s not irrelevant if you want to covert a normal gearbox to a seamless gearbox that’s durable and uses existing parts and technology so it doesn’t break the bank (homologation cost for a bike is ~$45k, a GP seamless gearbox cost 300k euro back in 2015). In fact, it’s not a novel idea to torque fill in between gear changes. GM and Ford have patents on this. Considering Ducati is entering e-bike racing it wouldn‘t be a stretch and is a logical step in progression. As long as Ducati could tip-toe around existing patents, it seams quite feasible ;)
Click to expand...

For a conventional transmission, maybe. The gap between shifts with a seamless gearbox is so short (~10-40 ms) that there’s nothing to fill.
 
craig bush said:
This ^^^

The difference between 1-N-6 and N-1-6 is simply gear position on the shafts. The gears are still individually selected via traditional selector forks.

Seamless transmissions are entirely different - two gears are simultaneously selected (similar to a dct) with one free-wheeling and one actually engaged by retractable “pawls” on the shaft. This allows for the shifts to be “seamless”.
Click to expand...

Yes, and it’s those retractable pawls that have made it not viable for a production bike, they wear out in one race and need rebuilt, you obviously can’t rebuild your gearbox every ride lol, but they were working on and filed some patents for a tab system that wouldn’t wear as fast.
 
Last edited:
craig bush said:
For a conventional transmission, maybe. The gap between shifts with a seamless gearbox is so short (~10-40 ms) that there’s nothing to fill.
Click to expand...

Correct. No need for torque fill for a seamless transmission.

But if you had torque fill you’d use a conventional gearbox. Conventional non-seamless gearbox shifts take about 0.04 sec on a GP bike. On a WSBK it’s probably around 0.06 and for us plebes with road bikes is prob around 0.075-0.15 sec. But it’s not all about time saved in between shifts. The real advantage is being able to shift at lean without upsetting the bike.
 
SuperDomestique said:
Correct. No need for torque fill for a seamless transmission.

But if you had torque fill you’d use a conventional gearbox. Conventional non-seamless gearbox shifts take about 0.04 sec on a GP bike. On a WSBK it’s probably around 0.06 and for us plebes with road bikes is prob around 0.075-0.15 sec. But it’s not all about time saved in between shifts. The real advantage is being able to shift at lean without upsetting the bike.
Click to expand...

While that’s a fair point, it seems to me the benefit of shifting mid-corner is mainly to save time when racing - during a track day, all you have to do to avoid the issue is short-shift. But I can see a potential use for e-motor torque fill with a conventional tranny.
 
This is the current WSBK gearbox, it's made by cima, has neutral below 1st but no lockout. I was lucky enough to get this end of season, i will be fitting it to our spare engine as soon as I recover from an incident will post what we find
 

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I don't see the need for a lockout. At the moment, on a standard road box, with N in the middle of first and second, there's no lockout. So why have it on a race sequence gearbox?
On the rare occasion I use first, I've never tried shifting down further.

Actually, a lockout on N on a standard sequence gearbox would be helpful, to avoid selecting N when on track etc.
 
I know this may make me look foolish, but I can't see the Ducati race sequence drum being big money (or, more money than the stock drum). It's, presumably, the same as the stock unit, just reordered? Or, at least the gears and selector forks are the same, and the drum would be different?
Plus, that pesky redesigned gear position sensor...
 
Yea but knowing Ducati you wouldn’t be surprised if they labeled it a DP or corse part with some fancy surface treatment on the gears and slapped a 10k price tag on it.
 
SuperDomestique said:
Anything is possible. Just depends how much money you’d want to chuck at the problem.

You’d need to send your engine or split your case and send them the bottom end with gears across the pond. Considering it costs $75 to send a 4 lb package to Italy, you’ll be spending at least a few to several hundo just on shipping back and forth.

+ Shift drum selector and forks are the same from 2019-22 between all models
- When/how much is this new selector drum? And is Ducati putting together a kit that sorts out the electronics too

Ideally you could knock the pin (17) out releasing the shift forks and pull out the drum selector. I’m not sure that’s feasible since the forks would drop into the bottom end when the pins are removed and considering they specify sending crankcases (not sure why they specify both cases as you should be able to get away w the lower one and just use the gearbox install tool to hold everything in place).

View attachment 47974

View attachment 47975

Hate to be a realist but I’d assume this would cost in the realm of $10k to do IF Ducati supplies the kit and more if you’d have Nova engineer a solution.
Click to expand...

How do you break down engineering marvels but then a seat makes you glitch?
 

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