Smoke from Exhaust

uthatch said:

I posted this in another topic, but probably should have here. Especially now that people are mentioning Porsches that also smoke:

Ducati is well aware of the smoking issue and it's from the vacuum pump that creates the near zero pressure in the crankcase. This type of system is derived directly from the automotive world and eliminates pumping losses therefore creating HP. Ducati actually told the dealership service techs well before the bikes hit the dealerships that this is a normal effect of the vacuum system.

Many new cars smoke upon start up. I often wondered why this was but I never really worried much about it. But I'm talking about a 2007 MB S550, 2 Boxster Spyders, a Panamera S, and a BMW 750, and a 2012 991 Porsche 911...everyone of these cars is mine or in my family and I have first hand noticed the smoke upon cold start up. I haven't looked into the designs of each of these motors, but they're all fairly high performance and since this 1199 technology is derived from the automotive world, I'd bet this is the reason behind the smoking of the cars.

Back on point, Ducati is 100% aware of the smoke issue, has a reasonable explanation, and has declared it acceptable. It's just my 2 cents, but I do know for a fact that service techs have known this for at least 4 weeks because I've known it that long.

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The vacuum pump explanation makes no sense. Think about it... If there's a vacuum in the crank case this would act to draw back any oil that might be seeping past the rings, not make it worse. It's also not an issue with some sort of exhaust coating, this would burn off in the first 50 miles as the whole exhaust system runs hot. in my case these are also some small spots of oil on the faring next to the front exhaust union on the left hand side of the bike. My bike has done 500 miles and for the most part had stopped smoking. Then all of a sudden I get lots of smoke on a number of starts.

The bike IS burning its oil, the question is why and is this anything to be concerned about? I'm not loosing sleep over it yet, but I would like a credible technical explanation as to why.

Ok, then it's probably oil seeping into the motor while the bike is at rest. At start up...bike burns and poofs the oil out. Clearly this is not a one off case since there are many examples of it.

Probably correct itself as the motor breaks in.

Any idea how much oil is she consuming?

I do smile at the smoke issue. Having an 09 ' Blade that uses 1litre of oil every 600 miles and smokes like a cigar test monkey at start up, I think the Duc will be a pleasant change!

I have 14,000 miles on the 'blade and the smoke issue has not changed since day one. Neither has performance appear to have been reduced.

PaddockStand said:

The vacuum pump explanation makes no sense. Think about it... If there's a vacuum in the crank case this would act to draw back any oil that might be seeping past the rings, not make it worse. It's also not an issue with some sort of exhaust coating, this would burn off in the first 50 miles as the whole exhaust system runs hot. in my case these are also some small spots of oil on the faring next to the front exhaust union on the left hand side of the bike. My bike has done 500 miles and for the most part had stopped smoking. Then all of a sudden I get lots of smoke on a number of starts.

The bike IS burning its oil, the question is why and is this anything to be concerned about? I'm not loosing sleep over it yet, but I would like a credible technical explanation as to why.

Click to expand...

as newton defined "actio = reactio" (Newton's Third Law), i wonder how many horses can be gained, by using them for running such a pump?

PaddockStand said:

The vacuum pump explanation makes no sense. Think about it... If there's a vacuum in the crank case this would act to draw back any oil that might be seeping past the rings, not make it worse. It's also not an issue with some sort of exhaust coating, this would burn off in the first 50 miles as the whole exhaust system runs hot. in my case these are also some small spots of oil on the faring next to the front exhaust union on the left hand side of the bike. My bike has done 500 miles and for the most part had stopped smoking. Then all of a sudden I get lots of smoke on a number of starts.

The bike IS burning its oil, the question is why and is this anything to be concerned about? I'm not loosing sleep over it yet, but I would like a credible technical explanation as to why.

Click to expand...

Actually, I have thought about it and it makes perfect sense. The pump takes a few seconds to create vacuum at start up and during this time is when the smoke is created. But it doesn't always lose its prime, hence more smoking sometimes and less others.

I'm not wondering about this; I KNEW it was coming long before the bikes landed. I was standing right alongside a tech last week when they called Ducati NA and told them that people were freaking out over the smoke on e Internet. I told him to call Ducati and he did, right on the spot. I'll bet an official, clearer response will be coming along soon because they took genuine interest.

The vacuum pump system creates smoking in high end cars and now has shifted to bikes. I'm convinced it's the issue, it explains why some vehicles do it and some don't, and it explains why it's sporadic. Believe it, don't believe it, it doesn't matter to me, but to me it makes perfect sense and is a reasonable explanation.

I am proposing a solution to the smoking issue

Since I sincerely care about all of you new Panigale owners, I am willing to make a sacrafice. I'm offering the following solutions:

1) I have a track day coming up next month at NJMSP. I'm willing to take one of your 1199s to the track in an attempt to massage out the smoking issue.

2) I will trade you......my 1998 Ducati 916 which only has 36k miles and has only been low-sided once at the track.

3) Pay you 1/2 what you paid for the bike immediately.

Yes I know, so generous....but that's how I role.

Doug

This should shed some light on the probable cause.

NOTE: If you use a dyno with a brake, it's critical during break - in that you allow the engine to decelerate fully on it's own. (Don't use the dyno brake.) The engine vacuum created during closed throttle deceleration sucks the excess oil and metal off the cylinder walls.

The point of this is to remove the very small (micro) particles of ring and cylinder material which are part of the normal wear during this process. During deceleration, the particles suspended in the oil blow out the exhaust, rather than accumulating in the ring grooves between
the piston and rings. This keeps the rings from wearing too much.

You'll notice that at first the engine "smokes" on decel, this is normal, as the rings haven't sealed yet. When you're doing it right, you'll notice that the smoke goes away after about 7-8 runs.

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Ok, so I skipped over a bunch of these posts because I'd rather be out riding my bike than taking about it. I've got a new standard, have had it one week. 4 short rides, maybe 50 miles.Mine smokes like a 2 stroke on start up, especially if I blip the throttle. Finding all you others with the same thing has put my worries to rest, as the factory can not pull "huh? Never heard of that?"
I've been it the racing world all my life and have alot of experience with Vac pumps. The primary purpose for them is to allow for VERY low tension piston rings, which free up significant horsepower gains from reducing friction. In a race engine environment there is usually a very well thought out break in on a dyno. There is a very good chance as we get these rings to seat properly, it will clear up. Personally, I say screw this slow 600mile 6k rpm breakin and I will work mine coaching a trackday next week! If it turns out that these things will always smoke on startup, and they will have bigger problems with EPA than us! I actually worry more about the ballbusting my jap bike friends will give me!
Bottom line is, give it a little time and chill. If any of you didn't anticipate something less than perfect preording an exotic bike that was way behind schedule, used revolutionary design, and was sought after by everyone, regardless of brand, shame on you! And if there is a real problem, we have strength in numbers.

Which track day? If Monday at NJMSP, I'll see you there! Not on my Ducati though.

Yup Sunday and Monday, I'm a coach for tpm. Usually on a black and white 03 R6 but want to break in Duc.
Update. You guys all bought your bike from the wrong dealer! I sent an email and a pic of the smoke an hour ago to MotoFit in Danbury CT where I bought my bike. I just received a phone call from Mike the owner. He had already been on the phone with the Ducati rep (Saturday?!) and just as I had explained, this is due to the low friction rings taking awhile to seat. This issue is exagerated by the fact that it comes with synthetic oil. We ALWAYS broke in the engines with Dino oil, then switched to synthetic. The synthetic is so slippery that it just slows down or stops the seating of the rings.They have many that have and believe all will. Again, he stated as I did, it's all about the breakin. For those who don't know, the best thing for breakin in is pulling a load uP the rpms. Constant speed, especially lugging, is horrible for breakin. Going up and down thru the gears, accelerating is the way to go.

Btw, my Prediction is that for bikes that don't stop smoking after a certain amount of time, Duc will have dealers put Dino oil in an run for a period to seat rings. NOW go ride your bikes!!! You've got the hottest sh*t on the road right now, chill and use your Duc like it was meant to be used.

Brett, is TPM running Lightening? I'm doing a Ducati day on Thunderbolt which is being run by Absolute.

Sorry, I'm talking about 17th/18th Sunday and Monday on TBolt. Tell Vin Manchanda (teaches first timers), Nick and Jesse to stop over at a TPM day if they are in the area, and take my 1199 out on the street for a test ride. All great guys, and Awesome coaches! If you can get a toe from any of them, and ask them to critique you, you will come away a better rider.

I'll look for them if they are at NJMSP this Monday (11th). Could use a tow/refresher since it's been 2 years since my last track day. I'm an old NESBA guy with some Absolute, SBTT, and Penguin days thrown in there. I'll be in level 3 right below advanced. One of them has to be a control rider in that group.

If not grab any coach, they are all great. If you see a middle aged guy on a BMW s1000rr, his name is Tom Cutter, just clinched a championship and is an excellent coach, and brilliant mechanic. Allyou have to do is approach a coach in the paddock and ask him for a follow/tow. Have him follow you a lap or two, come around and show you how to make it right. Few pointers on Tbolt. Entry cones!!!!! Don't turn in early! The chicane turns into a bag of poo is you turn in a foot early. Then at each apex of the chicane, don't flop the bike over until you've passed the cone. T6, fast right after slow left, gets real hard if you turn in early. T10, long left, the exit cone is the most important cone on the track, you must all but touch it before you stand the bike up. Everyone drives out early and turns the kinks before the bridge into real turns. If you wait youcan fly thru them with the throttle pinned. Hijack done, now back to your regularly scheduled thread

as newton defined "actio = reactio" (Newton's Third Law), i wonder how many horses can be gained, by using them for running such a pump?

Phil, the answer is ALOT! This has been used in hi hp drag cars for years. Just as it can require 100 or more HP to drive a supercharger (blower) on a top fuel dragster, the supercharger is directly responsible for thousands of additional hp. I do think the Duc engineers know what they are doing and I know they pulled a bunch of hp out of this. There is a bright side to all of this. Once the rings bed in, they, and the cylinder walls should last a loooong time, low friction rings do.

250 miles , no smoke at all.

The reason for excessive smoking from the exhaust is the bedding in coating on the rings. The short stroke gives a high piston loading and requires more complete running in. Once this coating is removed during running in the oil smoke will disappear.
It should be noted that running in for the first 600 miles needs to be done carefully. So don't run the engine hard cold, don't run at constant revs or throttle opening, don't use too high a gear and load the engine excessively. The recommendation is a maximum of 6000 rpm before first service and after that another period of bedding in whilst approaching full performance. The key is varied revs & loads - as the mileage increases exercise the engine and gearbox across the rev range until you are using full throttle and light loads and then slowly increase the loads. This will give you the best performance over the long term. You need to check the oil after the first 300 miles and top up if necessary, it will use quite a bit.
The decompression system has nothing to do with the oil smoke.

Note :- those that say bedding in by using it hard either use them solely on the track or put 2000 miles on them and sell them. If you use on track hard running in is fine but life is compromised.

Let me give you the history..

I picked up my bike at the end of May. First 2 startup's it produced a very little smoke. Over the course of summer I wasn't able to get many miles on the Pani, until a couple weeks ago. I put on nearly 400 miles on. Totaling about 690 miles when serviced.

The day of my service *appointment (last Saturday) I asked the dealer if they were going to use the recommended Shell oil. He reluctantly said they can't get it, but they will use Golden spectro full synthetic. He said they also have a higher dollar oil Motorex from Switzerland. He said that's a better class of oil and would recommend it if you don't mind the extra cost. Additionally he said the trans will shift smoother. I opted for the higher dollar oil thinking if it costs more it must be better especially if it's made in Switzerland. *

The last 4 times I have started my bike it blows more smoke than a 1970 diesel engine under boost.. *What's up with that?!*

Does its make sense that our manual specifically calls out use*SHELL Advance 4T Ultra engine oil and it's nearly impossible for us in the states to get it? *Can anyone get this stateside and I have just not looked hard enough?

Thanks in advance.
Scott

The Spectro oil you mentioned does have a variant that is the same spec as the Shell Ultra product (10w40) which is the grade my dealer is using. So that should be OK if it's a good quality brand - I have no idea.

There's also been some anecdotal evidence that over-filling after a service can also cause smoke issues, and that these are more pronounced. Having said that my dealer was a little heavy handed on filling this week but I couldn't make it smoke on start.

This is a random thought but would moving it while parked and with engine off perhaps cause some oil to leak through the engine valves because the engine isn't under pressure? Just a thought and probably just another spurious theory!

I thought mine had stopped smoking at 1,000km but I was just starting, leaving it idling, then riding it off. Discovered it was blipping the throttle that generated the smoke. Anyway I've done over 5,000km and she smoked every time up until about 3,500km so you have a way to go yet, your bike is still low mileage!