Sweet baby geezus! The Ducati has 3 sets of wings now?

I'll have to revisit that. 2018 was before my MotoGP subscription.

bp_SFV4 said:

I'll have to revisit that. 2018 was before my MotoGP subscription.

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There was a group of 5 or 6 fighting for the lead the whole race, something like 150 overtakes in the lead group

burton said:

There was a group of 5 or 6 fighting for the lead the whole race, something like 150 overtakes in the lead group

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Yep. Widely considered one of the best races of all time.

I discount any comparison of F1 to motogp. Motogp and motorcycle road racing requires the whole body of the rider to move in order to circumvent the corner and track and a little bit of areo tech. F1 is more about majority aero tech and minority 2 kg of force inputted onto the steeringwheel by the driver. they are complete opposites. I doubt downforce packages are killing F1 , but if they are Motogp in in no risk of following suit from the prototype racing development that separates motgp from wsbk. motogp aero tech will only make streetbikes better like all the other gifts motogp has given us.

Macattack said:

I discount any comparison of F1 to motogp. Motogp and motorcycle road racing requires the whole body of the rider to move in order to circumvent the corner and track and a little bit of areo tech. F1 is more about majority aero tech and minority 2 kg of force inputted onto the steeringwheel by the driver. they are complete opposites. I doubt downforce packages are killing F1 , but if they are Motogp in in no risk of following suit from the prototype racing development that separates motgp from wsbk. motogp aero tech will only make streetbikes better like all the other gifts motogp has given us.

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Why are we suddenly seeing more processional races then?

Why are racers complaining more frequently than before about difficulty passing?

Do you remember the race where Bez got caught in Pecco's draft and got sucked in and then was in way too hot? In one of the recent races I watched someone not pass apparently due to this. So if you have to break out of the draft early to negate this then wouldn't it make it harder to pass? That recent WSBK race 2 was simply incredible. It's unfortunate that all the camera technology is not used as much in WSBK.

craig bush said:

Why are we suddenly seeing more processional races then?

Why are racers complaining more frequently than before about difficulty passing?

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nothing compared to when lorenzo or mm was winning . it was a mm lorenzo walk away session from 2013 to 2019 the margin for victory was way bigger and no one passed anyone for the podium . nearly every race this year the guy in second or third or fourth at lap one ended up winning the race. the guys complaining are running in the back of the pack. 7 different riders have taken a victory this year. that has got to be a record. I'd guess that over 50% of those wins were taken from a less than 4th position at the end of lap one. someone is passing someone. boring is when mm or lorenzo was from pole to finishing the race 12 seconds ahead of the second place guy. I don't know what race you and others are watching, but I'm seeing lots of passing. the announcers keep talking about cooking tires in the draft , but this has always been the case. they just somehow now want to blame this on aerodynamics and wings. if anything I feel like the new areo adds another layer excitement to the sport . I'm thinking this is the closest racing I've seen it almost a decade. the guy in first place is never getting away from the other fast riders and you cannot tell at lap one who is going to take the victory. F1 has zero passing because a car simply cannot go through the turn with another car side by side. motorcycle racing is the opposite we see three bikes at the end of the first turn at lap one on every sunday. at malaysia pecco to pole and finished third and i think there were three different race leaders .

Macattack said:

nothing compared to when lorenzo or mm was winning . it was a mm lorenzo walk away session from 2013 to 2019 the margin for victory was way bigger and no one passed anyone for the podium . nearly every race this year the guy in second or third or fourth at lap one ended up winning the race. the guys complaining are running in the back of the pack. 7 different riders have taken a victory this year. that has got to be a record. I'd guess that over 50% of those wins were taken from a less than 4th position at the end of lap one. someone is passing someone. boring is when mm or lorenzo was from pole to finishing the race 12 seconds ahead of the second place guy. I don't know what race you and others are watching, but I'm seeing lots of passing. the announcers keep talking about cooking tires in the draft , but this has always been the case. they just somehow now want to blame this on aerodynamics and wings. if anything I feel like the new areo adds another layer excitement to the sport . I'm thinking this is the closest racing I've seen it almost a decade. the guy in first place is never getting away from the other fast riders and you cannot tell at lap one who is going to take the victory. F1 has zero passing because a car simply cannot go through the turn with another car side by side. motorcycle racing is the opposite we see three bikes at the end of the first turn at lap one on every sunday. at malaysia pecco to pole and finished third and i think there were three different race leaders .

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So, the riders and experienced journalists saying the opposite of what you’re saying are wrong then?

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/... aero also makes,downforce on the front tyre.
https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/overtaking-in-modern-motogp-now-so-hard-miller/10246906/
https://www.crash.net/motogp/featur...togp-has-overtaking-problem-nearly-impossible

Also…

1. “… seven races into the 2023 season and there’s not been a single overtake for the lead in the last ten laps of any race.”

From:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...the-opposite-of-what-youre-trying-to-achieve/

2. “… In the four races where there was a winning margin of under a second, there were three overtakes for the lead, total. In fact, after half a season, MotoGP has had only eight overtakes for the lead. One third of the races have had none.”

From:

https://www.the-race.com/motogp/ride-height-devices-are-suffocating-motogp-races-and-must-go/

3. “There was a grand total of two overtakes for the lead on Sunday.”

From:

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/10-things-we-learned-from-the-2023-motogp-italian-gp/10481946/

4. “We joked after the 2015 Australian Grand Prix that there were more overtakes and lead changes in the 27 laps than the complete Formula One season. It was probably not correct but after commentating on a race that included 52 overtaking manoeuvres and 13 lead changes..”

From:

https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2023/10/18/52-overtakes-and-13-lead-changes-overtaking-island/480323

5. “There were over 100 overtakes across a 26-lap race and seven riders battling for the victory down to the wire.”

From: MotoGP at 1000: Motorsport.com's favourite races.

Macattack said:

nothing compared to when lorenzo or mm was winning . it was a mm lorenzo walk away session from 2013 to 2019 the margin for victory was way bigger and no one passed anyone for the podium . nearly every race this year the guy in second or third or fourth at lap one ended up winning the race. the guys complaining are running in the back of the pack. 7 different riders have taken a victory this year. that has got to be a record. I'd guess that over 50% of those wins were taken from a less than 4th position at the end of lap one. someone is passing someone. boring is when mm or lorenzo was from pole to finishing the race 12 seconds ahead of the second place guy. I don't know what race you and others are watching, but I'm seeing lots of passing. the announcers keep talking about cooking tires in the draft , but this has always been the case. they just somehow now want to blame this on aerodynamics and wings. if anything I feel like the new areo adds another layer excitement to the sport . I'm thinking this is the closest racing I've seen it almost a decade. the guy in first place is never getting away from the other fast riders and you cannot tell at lap one who is going to take the victory. F1 has zero passing because a car simply cannot go through the turn with another car side by side. motorcycle racing is the opposite we see three bikes at the end of the first turn at lap one on every sunday. at malaysia pecco to pole and finished third and i think there were three different race leaders .

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Nicely put, fully agree

burton said:

...., I will pay for my MotoGP subscription just so that I can rewatch Assen 2018 whenever I feel like it

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here mate it has been free for ages

Some races (incl Sprints) have been brilliant this year. Aleix on Pecco at Silverstone, Phillip Island and more...
There are a lot of variables that affect the closeness of racing - the track, the tyre selection that Michelin bring, weather and probably luck based on who gets the holeshot etc.

panibadboy said:

Nicely put, fully agree

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lol

craig bush said:

Also…

1. “… seven races into the 2023 season and there’s not been a single overtake for the lead in the last ten laps of any race.”

This is a tire related problem , been a wsbk problem for years. it's related to grip and control tires IMO


2. “… In the four races where there was a winning margin of under a second, there were three overtakes for the lead, total. In fact, after half a season, MotoGP has had only eight overtakes for the lead. One third of the races have had none.”

So this is related to wings How? explain the physics. to me this is what close racing looks like at the end of the race the tires are cooked and the racing line is narrowed

3. “There was a grand total of two overtakes for the lead on Sunday.”

and Enea won his first race of the year , none of the fast points leaders crashed. could that be because this is the closest points race we've seen ever?


4. “We joked after the 2015 Australian Grand Prix that there were more overtakes and lead changes in the 27 laps than the complete Formula One season. It was probably not correct but after commentating on a race that included 52 overtaking manoeuvres and 13 lead changes..”

that was the year Rossi accused Marq of bunching up the race so lorenzo could win the title. they were like bumper cars , and MM had no chance at the title the lack of a freight train was simply related to the title chase.


5. “There were over 100 overtakes across a 26-lap race and seven riders battling for the victory down to the wire.”

And this will never happen again because the bikes have wings- got it

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IMO if they went back to cooking tires you'd never hear a peep about wings and aerodynamics from anyone I don't want them doing the crazy special batch tire flown in the night before thing I'm just pointing this out that its tires as much as aero

2007 the bikes are too fast = reduction to 800cc's - bike are unrideable~ electronics development crashfest= bikes are as fast as they were at 1000cc . ---> move to 1000cc bikes are too fast again -fuel limits, control tires= bikes are slower-----> areo development= bikes are fast again honda is not winning enough ----------> tire limits , fuel limits and bla bla bla bla bla

Macattack said:

IMO if they went back to cooking tires you'd never hear a peep about wings and aerodynamics from anyone I don't want them doing the crazy special batch tire flown in the night before thing I'm just pointing this out that its tires as much as aero

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I’m inclined to agree - the entire bike works as a system. Tires are generally considered the single most impactful performance determinant for race vehicles (cars and bikes). Aero is another. My assertion was that when aero becomes the predominant development path, racing suffers (I didn’t assert that aero development was the only factor negatively impacting the quality of racing). We saw this in F1, and we seem to be seeing it now in MotoGP. Others with far more expertise than me are asserting the same.

You disagreed. So I linked articles of Marc Marquez, Jack Miller, and Mat Oxley discussing the issue. You then asserted that the racing is better than previous years. I’m inclined to agree that in some ways, it is. The sprints have been pretty exciting, but the races have generally been intense action for a few laps followed by a processional snooze fest with few passes for significant position. Processional meaning “in line” without passing - not necessarily implying they can’t be closely in line. I linked the articles with data to support this. Two of the best races in the modern era (Phillips Island 2015 and Assen 2018) occurred during the time when you say the racing was less entertaining.

You can insist the racing is more entertaining with aero, and that’s fine, but it’s contrary to available data and expert opinion saying the opposite. Does that mean I’m advocating for a return to less aero and reintroducing special tires? No, two things (or more) can be true at the same time - aero should not be the predominant development path AND certain riders should not get special tires AND on the fly ride height devices should be prohibited AND…

Or not - like what you like

But there’s objective evidence that aero is leading to boring racing.

*Edited for clarification

Macattack said:

2007 the bikes are too fast = reduction to 800cc's - bike are unrideable~ electronics development crashfest= bikes are as fast as they were at 1000cc . ---> move to 1000cc bikes are too fast again -fuel limits, control tires= bikes are slower-----> areo development= bikes are fast again honda is not winning enough ----------> tire limits , fuel limits and bla bla bla bla bla

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Yep - it tends to pendulum back and forth between various interests and interventions. Looks like we’re going back to smaller displacement motors soon.

Just went to FB and first post in my feed is from Speed Physics:

“MotoGP Grand Prix of Qatar Free Practice One. KTM looks to be testing some aero updates and one that stands out is that RB19 rear wing

They also seem to be running multiple slats within the radiator intake area for some time now where earlier this season it was just the radiator.”

Suspension, electronics, tires, brakes, chassis?? Nah.

Aero baby! Aero on tap. You want some aero with your aero?

Why aren't they going after the adjustable ride height stuff? I like this technology I think it is going to make my street bike better someday , but it's gotta be shaving a second a lap off of laptimes , cooking tires , and causing crashes for the non point and squirt bikes. its unfair.

Macattack said:

Why aren't they going after the adjustable ride height stuff? I like this technology I think it is going to make my street bike better someday , but it's gotta be shaving a second a lap off of laptimes , cooking tires , and causing crashes for the non point and squirt bikes. its unfair.

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To my understanding they are planning to ban or significantly restrict the use of ride height devices in the next year or so.