V4 weight loss

Ahhhhh, Mick you’re going to get us yelled at. For the record I did state I thought the V4SL was awesome. Nuff said. However for "me" personally with the resources that I feel that I have and others that help me immensely, 60K over the cost of a brand new V4R for what they give you? That ain't ever going to happen.

Yeah no doubt no way plus with the resources definitely not gonna happen.

@endodoc People screamed bloody murder when they found out that BMW recommended engine replacement after something like 3k miles. What's the service interval on a set of superbike forks? How often do you need to rebuild real Brembo race calipers? Masters? What sort of monitoring is recommended for proper race spec components? Which of the best components are designed to tolerate being abused for 15,000 miles between services?

What good does any of that race componentry do for a street bike? It's even out of place on a track bike ridden by someone that's not obscenely capable. I'd go so far as to say the track performance benefit for the huge majority of riders would be non-existent and such a bike might even be a hinderance for their progress. What's the point in having a bike that's badass from a spec sheet perspective but offers little to nothing in terms of additional performance and comes with a boatload of practical annoyances like the maintenance?

Well, again, that's not really the point of the question.

If someone wants a V4 Superleggera, there's something about the bike that appeals to them. If they have the money and feel like they would like to spend it on a V4 Superleggera, that's different than building the best V4R possible. They are two different bikes and, in my opinion, aren't a one or the other decision. One is the best limited bike that Ducati offers complete with a warranty and normal service intervals and the other is the best bike you can build that with parts that have no expectation of normal homologated road use; two very different things.

Building the best V4R possible (or V4) involves gathering different parts and painstakingly assembling something where every component is the best of the best. Not only is that something that not everyone has the bandwidth to do but that's quite the different story than owning the best that Ducati offers.

There's another side to this, too. I have bought several absolutely amazing race bikes that started as frames only and were built with tons of Corse parts and other best of the best parts by some top race shops and teams. The prices that I paid were nowhere near the build costs. I'm not talking Superleggera depreciation but more like yacht level depreciation. And there's never a shortage of those. Boulder Motorsports is local to me and they're a Corse shop. I have seen a lot of their builds (actual builds, not the bolt on stuff you guys lament) of various Panigale models. I have seen what goes into them and the parts and the work is top notch. Inevitably, I have had the chance to buy some of their best builds afterward (like Pete Friedland's amazing 1199 Superleggera build) and of course I wouldn't have paid anywhere near what it cost to do in the first place.

Look, I'm not criticizing that either. I took apart a perfectly good 1200 mile 1098R and rebuilt it, including sending the frame to Pierobon for them to do the SBK upgrade on it. I did the same thing on my 998R. I know why people do that sort of thing even if it doesn't make financial sense. Sometimes you just want to make sure everything is exactly right and best that it can be, regardless of whether you want to upgrade everything or just rebuild properly making everything exactly right.

So again, I love that people build this stuff and it's amazing to see the possibilities and there is something special about having a best of the best build. But I don't think that doing something like that takes the place of buying a V4SL from Ducati. Conversely, other than a couple of people (like the aforementioned PF) I don't think that someone looks to buy something like a V4SL and use that as a start to a long and expensive project. And as I said, it has normal road use service intervals and a warranty which again, is totally different.

But whatever. I wasn't looking to start a debate as to which is better. I only wanted to learn what someone with the resources and connections would do and what it would take.

@Sherpa23 I wasn't trying to argue about which is better. I was just pointing out that context is incredibly important. The "best of the best" has to be evaluated in the context of a specific purpose. If the purpose is acquiring a machine with the raciest of components then rock on. If the purpose is developing a tool that's going to get you (vs Scott Redding) around a track in the least amount of time possible then that's probably not going to work out as expected.

Btrain5489, completely agree with what you are saying. You are absolutely correct with respect to implementing a specific level of performance parts on a daily rider. There will be limitations for certain in the ability to successfully run those level of parts and it is something that I had to figure out. Additionally if you are looking at the weight aspect of things, many times the top shelf parts weight more than general performance parts. My intention between the BMW and the 1299SL was to show value from an acquisition perspective. If I was given say and HSBK catalogue before the purchase of either bike and used that as a price guide looking at both bikes I would have come away with the conclusion based on what the component costs were and how they were tiered in the literature that BMW was giving me better parts for the money and that Ducati was over charging me. It's that simple. Now with regard to reliability, I have 19K on the first 1299. I have rebuilt the "racing only" monoblocks 2x. Never had a leak but did it just because. The TiN coating on the pistons is still excellent to this day. Never had an issue. Rear GP master. Havn’t touched it rock solid. Carbon tank (CDT) solid. Carbon subframe (I thought no way thats going to hold up) solid. I have replaced the seal kit in the clutch master (Brembo GP) one time, haven’t I touched the brake master. The motor has some internal mods but I have not touched it since installation. Runs like a watch. I do not have SBK forks on it however there is a seal kit to run the 300s and I suspect that they would hold up similarly to the rest of the parts with a little maintenance. Now in defense we need to be fair. First off you referenced the standard first service interval of 15K to the Ducati. That my friend isn’t ever going to happen. I would love to hear from the 1299 SL owners that are in "trouble free" triple digits with there bikes. I know of only 1 higher milage 1299 SL (6000 mi) and it has gone through 2 motors already which puts it on par with the BMW and that individual is a member here and you know what, he loves the bike despite the hassle. The single ring piston on the SL is just not milage or low RPM friendly. My solution when i bought the 1299SL motor kits from Tamburini was to take a standard 1299 piston and the SL piston to Carrillo and have a set made with the SL dome spec and the standard multi ring skirt. Reliability issue solved (I hope). Yes the assembly was rebalancing and I compensated for the additional piston mass with wrist pins that Carrillo provided. Are the parts way over my head as a rider, most assuredly are the parts over the top for a track day bike for most people, yep but this was ground up build with and intended purpose and coming from an aerospace background where that kind of stuff is the norm, I picked what was commensurate with what I knew and so far it has performed as I expected. Only issues that I have had were electrical but I now know what all of the issues were and that has been rectified.

BTrain5489 said:

@Sherpa23 I wasn't trying to argue about which is better. I was just pointing out that context is incredibly important. The "best of the best" has to be evaluated in the context of a specific purpose. If the purpose is acquiring a machine with the raciest of components then rock on. If the purpose is developing a tool that's going to get you (vs Scott Redding) around a track in the least amount of time possible then that's probably not going to work out as expected.

Click to expand...

My post wasn't directed at you. I didn't even see your post until after I posted mine.

After reading Endodoc's and Mick's responses to my initial questions, I wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to devolve the lightweight discussion into a "V4SL vs What Can You Build" discussion.

I do think from a business POV the HP4race and V4SL or even the 1299SL is a very interesting comparison. For all the previous mentioned reasons, but mostly because the SLs sell every time while the HP4races were a famous flop sales wise. A lot of people got those things for dirt cheap. I think it boils down to a significant win for Ducati and its marketing. Regardless of what we think about the high performance value of a 100k V4SL (obvsly its doesn't make sense), it more hits an "exotic" customer.

Well again, I could give 2 poops abut a brand. I wanted a twin, Ducati made it. Simple as that. There was a time I knew nothing about quality. That is something that is learned. You can get a head start with some rational thinking but some people will never get there and most people never care. I already went through the "tech madness" phase with aircraft so I knew what I wanted to see when i got into cars and bikes from a general engineering perspective, i just didn’t know the brands and the lingo yet. The difference between an M50 caliper that says Brembo in shiny red paint and a XA8D1E0/E1 monoblock at $2700.00 a side that says Brembo in shiny red paint to the guy on the street and even most riders is absolutely nothing. That distinction is why I build the most boring, uninteresting bikes I can because unless you know what you are looking at, you wouldn't look at something I have. No paint, no graphics of any kind unless it cant be removed. I do occasionally get asked, "what is that' to which I reply, its a motorcycle. point is that I learned a whole lot when I first made that post about building vs buying here a long time ago. I learned that you cant have the round earth and the flat earth people in the same room without a dispute. Again the gist of my post was from my perspective which was, I know what parts cost. I know that no matter what CPA you put in font of me that I personally wont get value for my money if I buy vs build period. Again that is a conversation to be had with round earth people. The flat earth crowd will just lob rocks at you and call you a dreamer and then go home and start adding parts to their bike without even thinking about the fact that the $3500.00 you just dropped at Brocks Performance for some wheels, Ducati would have dinged you 8K for. True fact so when you chuckle at the guy who thinks they have a better mousetrap and you’re in the garage working on "a better mousetrap" might want to ponder the situation a bit

I am always wondering how much affect will engine management and electronic tuning play apart in making the bike achieve faster lap time?
For example, many shops and individual will be able to source the best mechanical components (frame, swing arm, wheel, suspension, brake) available for the Panigale V4, even the electronics.
But will a shop or individual (outside and without the help of Ducati Corse) tune all those components that enable the bike to be faster than a Superleggera V4 at the same track, same time, and same rider using same tire?

Ducati really point this out regarding the Superleggera development:
Speed emotions
More than fifteen track sessions dedicated to the development of this bike have been organized.
At each session different mappings were tested, to refine the calibration of dynamics and engine to the point that it was practically impossible to improve it.

I only get back to motorcycle hobby just this past 9 months, so I have a lot to catch up, but I follow car world more.
An example from the car world, The latest Porsche 911 GT2 RS, which is basically at the similar status with the Superleggera V4
There are many world class Porsche tuner (even manufacturer status due to the German exempt that get them manufacturer status), for example Ruf, TechArt, 9ff etc.
But none of those tuner is capable of better the lap time of a 911 GT2 RS at Nurburgring. And those tuner does not lack money either.

Only Manthey Racing (which can be called tuner/racing shop but majority owned by Porsche with FULL Porsche factory backing) able to create an upgrade package to improve the lap time of the 911 GT2 RS at the Nurburgring with their MR Package.

The ultimate benchmark to measure a success will be lap time , at the same track, same time (not exactly same exact second, but same day same weather condition), and same rider using same tire.
Will a shop without the official support and development from Ducati Corse be able to match or beat the Superleggera V4 lap time?

Bottom line, every single guy here that is adding parts to their bike is trying to build a better bike than Ducati built for them. Some of them are just taking it further down the road but the journey my friends is the same.

Perfect opportunity for a go fund me round, let's try it. Il'l put in 20K how cool would that be to have a "site sponsored bike" as a tech demonstrator. I guarantee with a check for the same amount you walk out the door with an SL for that there is way more than enough talent in the member pool to build a bike that beats that thing every day of the week.

And thats going to be a production SL correct not the media "Demo" bike? Just checking. You know like the cessna brochure, performance figures done with half tanks, cold air, no interior etc

endodoc said:

Bottom line, every single guy here that is adding parts to their bike is trying to build a better bike than Ducati built for them. Some of them are just taking it further down the road but the journey my friends is the same.

Click to expand...

endodoc said:

And thats going to be a production SL correct not the media "Demo" bike? Just checking. You know like the cessna brochure, performance figures done with half tanks, cold air, no interior etc

Click to expand...

I totally agree with you on the "journey", it is intoxicating watching your own creation born to life. I mean, I am already enjoying my bolt on creation, I can only imagine how even better feeling when you buy the best each individual component and assemble it yourself. But with this "level" of creation geared toward performance improvement (not cosmetic improvement), there will be a need of "development and tuning" which only the factory has the data base from years of real world class racing and resources to develop them. I mean after all, those Corse parts or those GP Brembo forks were design following the Corse requirement. Which mean those Corse engineer have the inside knowledge on what and why that part can do or not do.
So, yes, no doubt the "journey" alone might be worth the cost, but in the end, every engineering success need a measureable metrics (logic like the round earth people) and the best and final metric is lap time.

Yes, of course a Production SL and as I said, same place (so the same ambient temp and weather), same location, same time during the day, same rider and same tire. (But free sprocket choice, free engine tuning and free suspension tuning (most likely different suspension anyway) and different brake, oh and free aerodynamic tuning. Now, I just realized not only electronic tuning but aerodynamic tuning is also important aspect of SL performance, and it will be hard for privateer to have the resources to develop their aero at the wind tunnel. Maybe they can rent the wind tunnel facility, but can they analyze the data and use it for their development?

So with all the parameter above, do you think the shop outside Corse can build bike that can best the lap time of the SL?

Without question and for less $$

BTrain5489 said:

@endodoc People screamed bloody murder when they found out that BMW recommended engine replacement after something like 3k miles. What's the service interval on a set of superbike forks? How often do you need to rebuild real Brembo race calipers? Masters? What sort of monitoring is recommended for proper race spec components? Which of the best components are designed to tolerate being abused for 15,000 miles between services?

What good does any of that race componentry do for a street bike? It's even out of place on a track bike ridden by someone that's not obscenely capable. I'd go so far as to say the track performance benefit for the huge majority of riders would be non-existent and such a bike might even be a hinderance for their progress. What's the point in having a bike that's badass from a spec sheet perspective but offers little to nothing in terms of additional performance and comes with a boatload of practical annoyances like the maintenance?

Click to expand...

I have a HP4 race and a V4R, I have heavily modified the V4R fitted it with custom triple clamp, fgr superbike fork, carbon subframe, custom rear Link, custom swingarm pivot etc.. it actually cost more than the BMW they are both very different but equally capable bikes, as for maintenance, well that's pretty much the same as any bike on the track, the sbk forks don't require any more maintenance than stock fork's, same as the calipers, if a bike is used primarily for track days then the forks should be rebuilt every 3rd- 4th day, and if racing after every day. Calipers should be cleaned with soap and water after every track day regardless of the riders pace. As for the engine life on the BMW the 5,000 KMs between engine replacement is only a recommendation and is dependent on how hard it is ridden, BMW warranty is for 5,000 track kms which is pretty good IMO.

This is what I like to see. A perspective from someone who is actually walking the walk. Excellent post

endodoc said:

Well again, I could give 2 poops abut a brand. I wanted a twin, Ducati made it. Simple as that. There was a time I knew nothing about quality. That is something that is learned. You can get a head start with some rational thinking but some people will never get there and most people never care. I already went through the "tech madness" phase with aircraft so I knew what I wanted to see when i got into cars and bikes from a general engineering perspective, i just didn’t know the brands and the lingo yet. The difference between an M50 caliper that says Brembo in shiny red paint and a XA8D1E0/E1 monoblock at $2700.00 a side that says Brembo in shiny red paint to the guy on the street and even most riders is absolutely nothing. That distinction is why I build the most boring, uninteresting bikes I can because unless you know what you are looking at, you wouldn't look at something I have. No paint, no graphics of any kind unless it cant be removed. I do occasionally get asked, "what is that' to which I reply, its a motorcycle. point is that I learned a whole lot when I first made that post about building vs buying here a long time ago. I learned that you cant have the round earth and the flat earth people in the same room without a dispute. Again the gist of my post was from my perspective which was, I know what parts cost. I know that no matter what CPA you put in font of me that I personally wont get value for my money if I buy vs build period. Again that is a conversation to be had with round earth people. The flat earth crowd will just lob rocks at you and call you a dreamer and then go home and start adding parts to their bike without even thinking about the fact that the $3500.00 you just dropped at Brocks Performance for some wheels, Ducati would have dinged you 8K for. True fact so when you chuckle at the guy who thinks they have a better mousetrap and you’re in the garage working on "a better mousetrap" might want to ponder the situation a bit

Click to expand...

What's this round earth vs flat earth thing? When it comes to buy vs build, why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both?

You outlined perfectly clearly that when any person bolts anything on to their Ducati (even something as little as Mick's carbon res mounts), they're saying that Ducati could have made the bike better. That's true. Sometimes it's less involved and sometimes it's more involved. For example, my 1199 Superleggera is a very nice bike but I didn't like a lot of the power characteristics compared to my 1098R and I got a 70mm WSBK exhaust from one of the teams and after tuning, it gave the bike a ton more midrange.

Do I think that Ducati could have made the bike better? Evidently I did or I would not have made the change. But I understand their limitations and it's foolish to think that Ducati could sell one bike to the public that's the absolute best it can be. Manufacturers' limitations in modern times absolutely don't allow for that. Do I think that if I picked and chose every single component like you and Mick that I could make a better Panigale. Absolutely. That's not really up for debate and I think that someone would have to be a fool or incredibly naive to think otherwise.

So, to that end, I don't understand where this round earth vs flat earth defensiveness comes in. Your post implies that you have been derided for your view but again, I don't know where that comes from. And just as I don't understand that, I don't understand why this would be a one or the other philosophy. Someone who truly loves and appreciates motorcycles should be able to see the benefits and upsides of each and should be able to embrace both. Instead, your post indicates that one person thinks 2+2 equals 4 and other sees is as 2+2 equals 297, thus implying that one person is a rational and the other is complete moron and his/her views is completely idiotic.

There is beauty on both sides of the coin. Why can't someone buy something like a V4 Superleggera and then also build a second bike that where they hand select all of the best parts. As I said, they are two different bikes. I don't see why the typical experience motorcycle enthusiast can't understand the effective nature of each and appreciate each and, as such, it should not be a one or the other philosophy. And, consequently, it should be two "round earth" philosophies.

endodoc said:

Bottom line, every single guy here that is adding parts to their bike is trying to build a better bike "from their perspective" than Ducati built for them. Some of them are just taking it further down the road but the journey my friends is the same.

Click to expand...

I think you are missing one thing here that I added above in your quote. It's not that Ducati can't build a better bike or people think they can do it better, it is that the definition of a better bike is individual. Some want higher end show parts, some want race parts, some want it exceeding what can be done under regulations (for example, noise). Everyone is different. Ducati designs and manufactures a bike to the masses within the constraints of regulations. The natural result is people will change things to meet their needs or wants.

All valid and salient points gentlemen. I think the simplicity became a bit complex. I remember walking through the new house. I marveled at the finely machined stainless hinges and fixtures and detail in the fit of the doors and the precision roller bearing drawers. My wife marveled at the complimentary match of wood and other finishes and the foliage. Two people same house, neither of us paying attention to what the other negotiated as value to them but in the end, we both loved the house.