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spooky said:
At what cost. Appeasement has never worked and Russians recognise it as weakness.

Bringing it back to Trump, don’t you think it’s rather odd to have Russia and the US deciding on the future of another country while trying to carve up its natural assets between them. This doesn’t make you feel somewhat uncomfortable? No moral issues with that hostile takeover and asset stripping?

Maybe Trump thinks Russia, China, etc are the future and he wants to align the US with them, but they are fundamentally different systems.
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Iraq 3.0? Pani doesn’t realize the corner that he’s painted himself into.
 
spooky said:
Appeasement has never worked and Russians recognise it as weakness.
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don't think its as black-and-white as that. People on both sides run businesses. Russians can't continue paying for this war forever and need a good exit liquidity. Trump by the looks of it, wants to be the one who stops the war but also wants some $$$ to go with it.

whatever has been discussed so far seems reasonable. Ukraine is not in the picture yes, but I guess this is why they call it a proxy war ?
spooky said:
and he wants to align the US with them,
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dont think so. more like to have an ally against China? no idea, here.
 
panibadboy said:
don't think its as black-and-white as that. People on both sides run businesses. Russians can't continue paying for this war forever and need a good exit liquidity. Trump by the looks of it, wants to be the one who stops the war but also wants some $$$ to go with it.

whatever has been discussed so far seems reasonable. Ukraine is not in the picture yes, but I guess this is why they call it a proxy war ?


dont think so. more like to have an ally against China? no idea, here.
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Fat Donnie owes Putin. Russia cannot be an empire without the breadbasket that is Ukraine. In the future as climate change shrinks the grain latitudes abilities to produce this will be way more important. Putin will never stop. If they do come up with some sort of deal he'll just wait, rearm and come again. I have wondered for a while now if Putin has a fatal illness with a long time constant.
 
spooky said:
The man is a war criminal. And then after causing all that chaos in the Middle East (with the US) he has the nerve to become a peace envoy to the Middle East. You couldn’t make it up… Bringing this stuff up is pretty much ‘whataboutism’ though and doesn’t justify or excuse what’s happening.

In all of these situations I blame the aggressor - Blair and the US in Iraq, Cameron off to Libya to ruin the place and remove Gadaffi, and Putin invading Ukraine (and meddling in loads of other places). I don’t care if it’s the East or West, ‘democracies’ or whatever. It goes on and on and on… How many days of peace in the last 2,000 years? Three? Four? What an utterly hopeless species.

Underlying all of this, and what most of these conversations ignore, are real people and families who simply want to live their lives. Ukrainians are no more inherently corrupt than anyone else - they simply had the misfortune to be born into a corrupt system in which they need to survive. You play the hand you are dealt. They deserve a new deck.

It’s easy to judge from the comfort of where we happen to have been born, but most people have simple needs for their lives and if they earn enough through honest means to pay their bills and raise their families then they generally don’t feel the need to do anything beyond that. Keep people down and you get corruption through necessity (rather than corruption through greed).
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I guess you're right on all accounts. As you say it's easy to judge from the comfort of where we happened to have been born.
 
Yesterday, I along with most of the civilized world witnessed what has to be the most humiliating, thuggish, inept and cowardly display by any American President and Vice President in American history. The longer I think about it, the madder I get. Literally, as the Ukrainian people are being murdered by subhuman Russians, the world watched America abandon all that it has stood for since its founding. When I think of the scarifies our forbearers have made, and now this betrayal of their sacrifices, I’m ashamed to be an American. On their best day, these two cowards wouldn’t last 5 minutes on the front lines in Ukraine. For these contemptible cowards to tell Ukraine they must give up, is reminiscent of Hitler telling the British that they had to surrender.
MAGA and Trump are to corrupt to honor or even understand the Belarus Accords which America signed in 1994. When the Soviet Union collapsed, America and the other European countries pledged to defend Ukraine against Russia, if they gave up their Nuclear weapons. Which Ukraine did. Ukraine doesn’t owe America anything. They already lived up to their end of the agreement. Now it’s our turn. Thirty years later MAGA and Trump come along, and they have no honor. Those of you who voted for these criminals are just as complicit in the Genocide being committed at this very moment against the Ukrainian people.
Go on, let me hear you rationalize this. Twist your lies and half truths so you can live with yourself. And when you’re done, actually read the Belarus Accords and tell the Ukrainian people that America won’t honor our commitment. Tell me that Russia would’ve still seized Crimea and invaded Ukraine if the Ukrainian’s had Nuclear weapons.
 
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VYRUS said:
Yesterday, I along with most of the civilized world witnessed what has to be the most humiliating, thuggish, inept and cowardly display by any American President and Vice President in American history. The longer I think about it, the madder I get. Literally, as the Ukrainian people are being murdered by subhuman Russians, the world watched America abandon all that it has stood for since its founding. When I think of the scarifies our forbearers have made, and now this betrayal of their sacrifices, I’m ashamed to be an American. On their best day, these two cowards wouldn’t last 5 minutes on the front lines in Ukraine. For these contemptible cowards to tell Ukraine they must give up, is reminiscent of Hitler telling the British that they had to surrender.
MAGA and Trump are to corrupt to honor or even understand the Belarus Accords which America signed in 1994. When the Soviet Union collapsed, America and the other European countries pledged to defend Ukraine against Russia, if they gave up their Nuclear weapons. Which Ukraine did. Ukraine doesn’t owe America anything. They already lived up to their end of the agreement. Now it’s our turn. Thirty years later MAGA and Trump come along, and they have no honor. Those of you who voted for these criminals are just as complicit in the Genocide being committed at this very moment against the Ukrainian people.
Go on, let me hear you rationalize this. Twist your lies and half truths so you can live with yourself. And when you’re done, actually read the Belarus Accords and tell the Ukrainian people that America won’t honor our commitment. Tell me that Russia would’ve still seized Crimea and invaded Ukraine if the Ukrainian’s had Nuclear weapons.
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Fat Donnie abandoned the Kurds who were the tip of the sword against Isis. Don't worry everything will become worse. If he fires more generals and replaces them with a** lickers, we're f**cked.
 
VYRUS said:
Yesterday, I along with most of the civilized world witnessed what has to be the most humiliating, thuggish, inept and cowardly display by any American President and Vice President in American history. The longer I think about it, the madder I get. Literally, as the Ukrainian people are being murdered by subhuman Russians, the world watched America abandon all
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What a load of crap. Innocent Russians and Ukranians are being murdered by American made weapons, bunch of people in Congress got insanely rich and hundreds of billions are missing by Zelensky accord.

What happened yesterday should have happened in 2014 to be honest
 

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