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Stw
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As I said earlier.
The thread is about the original posters results on the dyno.
Lets get back to that...
We're all going round in circles.
(Smiley back at ya)....
.
Midnight here. I'm going to sleep..............Zzzzzzz.!
.
The thread is about the original posters results on the dyno.
Lets get back to that...
We're all going round in circles.
(Smiley back at ya)....
.
Midnight here. I'm going to sleep..............Zzzzzzz.!
.
In my opinion it is good that the AR system needs to have mapping changes, if it ran well with the standard pipe map it will make similar power.
The fact that it needs mapping means it has made a significant change to the exhaust dynamics.
The Dyno graph shows a jump in power down low, then it falls in a hole as the a/f ratio goes bad.
I think it is time to wait and see how the bike turns out once it is tuned.
Ducati did change the mapping for the Termi system when they released the new map at the end of last year. This is backed up by Todd Pattersons Dyno results on the Termi system.
This means you can no longer expect the same result that AR had when they fitted the system without mapping.
Lets see what the mapping does.
The fact that it needs mapping means it has made a significant change to the exhaust dynamics.
The Dyno graph shows a jump in power down low, then it falls in a hole as the a/f ratio goes bad.
I think it is time to wait and see how the bike turns out once it is tuned.
Ducati did change the mapping for the Termi system when they released the new map at the end of last year. This is backed up by Todd Pattersons Dyno results on the Termi system.
This means you can no longer expect the same result that AR had when they fitted the system without mapping.
Lets see what the mapping does.
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How is it off track.. The thread started about the AR pipe...it still is...
Thread was driven offtrack when members decided to start bashing a full race system with no tuning and no final result.
It was clearly stated early on how to reproduce the tests that AR performed in the UK. Most RACE shops set up bikes on dynos the way they have done to tune, then test on the track. Another well known tuner/shop owner in Australia supported this. But yet somehow it is missed.
Can we save judgement till the motorcycle is tuned and an on-road evaluation is performed?
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Yes!!! No one knows what the a/f ratios or timing looks like in those regions. And I'll tell you what, if you go back and examine the old threads where AR posted curves of their system with no tune, it looks pretty similar....
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Stw
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This is exactly what's going on in our government
let's not open up that can of rotten worms
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I just finished reading the entire thread. It took me a long time~
We have a 105 db limit where I live @ 4500rpm. I need to install the db killer with 4 welded spots on the Termi Slip On in order to pass the test.
So none of this applies to me. I am just envious of you guys wether it is Termi or AR, you can actually install them and ride it...
We have a 105 db limit where I live @ 4500rpm. I need to install the db killer with 4 welded spots on the Termi Slip On in order to pass the test.
So none of this applies to me. I am just envious of you guys wether it is Termi or AR, you can actually install them and ride it...
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There is nothing implicitly wrong in chasing peak hp numbers, if that is your interest. There are plenty of dyno queens and keyboard racers out there.
However, the "area under the curve" is where my focus is when I am considering any power adding modifications. What will the average hp gains be? Will the powerband suit where I plan to spend most of my time? Am I trading power for response? etc. How much is the total cost? What other advantages might it offer, IOW, what are the trade-offs? Lastly, who has verified the results and what is their feed-back? +/-
Practically speaking, I would love to know in advance how much hp/$ we are expecting to gain from a bolt on exhaust with or without dyno tuning? Although I really can't imagine changing flow without re-tuning the bike.
Gavin raises questions that I was wondering about myself. Asking why AR's part improves performance over another deserves an educated response, in a professional, and (ideally) friendly manner. If the tube diameter is the same, are the bends greater radius, or shorter length, etc. It isn't really much of a secret, but more of a design/package trade-off. There is no single BEST exhaust for ALL conditions, hence why AR provides the optimized dyno conditions in which to test their design.
Unfortunately, neither of my local dyno shops have the cfm capable of creating the needed ram air effect to be able to validate AR's claims. It might be easier just to state the sustained speeds in excess of XXX mph are necessary to observe a significant difference between this exhaust and the others.
Using apples to apples means including the total cost vs. expected performance gains. If the results can only be reproduced on a limited number of dynos (must be ram capable) then that should be clearly stated, to avoid both the disappointment and wasted dyno runs.(e.g. $$$)
I am looking forward to dyno verification of AR's claims from a neutral third-party.
GL OP
However, the "area under the curve" is where my focus is when I am considering any power adding modifications. What will the average hp gains be? Will the powerband suit where I plan to spend most of my time? Am I trading power for response? etc. How much is the total cost? What other advantages might it offer, IOW, what are the trade-offs? Lastly, who has verified the results and what is their feed-back? +/-
Practically speaking, I would love to know in advance how much hp/$ we are expecting to gain from a bolt on exhaust with or without dyno tuning? Although I really can't imagine changing flow without re-tuning the bike.
Gavin raises questions that I was wondering about myself. Asking why AR's part improves performance over another deserves an educated response, in a professional, and (ideally) friendly manner. If the tube diameter is the same, are the bends greater radius, or shorter length, etc. It isn't really much of a secret, but more of a design/package trade-off. There is no single BEST exhaust for ALL conditions, hence why AR provides the optimized dyno conditions in which to test their design.
Unfortunately, neither of my local dyno shops have the cfm capable of creating the needed ram air effect to be able to validate AR's claims. It might be easier just to state the sustained speeds in excess of XXX mph are necessary to observe a significant difference between this exhaust and the others.
Using apples to apples means including the total cost vs. expected performance gains. If the results can only be reproduced on a limited number of dynos (must be ram capable) then that should be clearly stated, to avoid both the disappointment and wasted dyno runs.(e.g. $$$)
I am looking forward to dyno verification of AR's claims from a neutral third-party.
GL OP
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Fixed it for ya
Glad you find that amusing but you are essentially accusing AR of lying.
I hope that reading posts from other tuners, not just from us, you all now realise the following.
The Pani is a very strange beast to dyno. It is essential to know what you are doing with it to get the correct results. Air must be blown into the ram air and sensors disconnected with all interfering modes turned off. The bike must be run up to temperature and a good number of runs made to get to any kind of consistency. We see a bike range from 170bhp to 185bhp within the same batch of runs! Why? It's a strange very electronically based bike that has quirks.
The results of the dyno runs that this thread is based on are not an accurate result, hopefully the above combined with the fact the Ecu will limit things without blown air explains this to you all. The termi slips with latest Upmaps vs AR full without any mapping is obviously not a fair comparative test, agreed!
Our exhaust is a straight through race system with removable baffling. It makes a massive difference to figures how you run this exhaust, with inserts, with 1 insert, mapped or not mapped.
How can you map a tune boy on an un blown dyno for the AR exhaust! You can't, any figures then gained from such a mapping will not be a true result. The bike has to be mapped on the dyno that will then do the final runs. Surely this is obvious to all.
AR work within the F1 industry supplieing current F1 cars with Inconel products. We can not divulge the inner workings of this exhaust system, why would we! We spent thousands in research materials and time to get to this point.
I can tell you it is very free flowing, as such, you see less heat build up. Inconel has unique heat handling properties, please see the about us on our website for info.
We are producing a heat shield for customers that feel they require it, we have always stated we would do this if requested.
I hope this answers questions and puts the thread back on track.
The Pani is a very strange beast to dyno. It is essential to know what you are doing with it to get the correct results. Air must be blown into the ram air and sensors disconnected with all interfering modes turned off. The bike must be run up to temperature and a good number of runs made to get to any kind of consistency. We see a bike range from 170bhp to 185bhp within the same batch of runs! Why? It's a strange very electronically based bike that has quirks.
The results of the dyno runs that this thread is based on are not an accurate result, hopefully the above combined with the fact the Ecu will limit things without blown air explains this to you all. The termi slips with latest Upmaps vs AR full without any mapping is obviously not a fair comparative test, agreed!
Our exhaust is a straight through race system with removable baffling. It makes a massive difference to figures how you run this exhaust, with inserts, with 1 insert, mapped or not mapped.
How can you map a tune boy on an un blown dyno for the AR exhaust! You can't, any figures then gained from such a mapping will not be a true result. The bike has to be mapped on the dyno that will then do the final runs. Surely this is obvious to all.
AR work within the F1 industry supplieing current F1 cars with Inconel products. We can not divulge the inner workings of this exhaust system, why would we! We spent thousands in research materials and time to get to this point.
I can tell you it is very free flowing, as such, you see less heat build up. Inconel has unique heat handling properties, please see the about us on our website for info.
We are producing a heat shield for customers that feel they require it, we have always stated we would do this if requested.
I hope this answers questions and puts the thread back on track.
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