AR Inconel Install

Ducati Forum

Help Support Ducati Forum:

Argument = claim + warrant

The issue at hand is that an argument consists of two parts: claim and warrant. The claim is clear, but the warrant is missing or unclear to the readers of this thread. It is fair not to want to divulge "industry secrets", however, this creates a situation where the argument will be questioned due to issues with the warrant (substantiation).

The other aspect is the variance in dyno results. This creates uncertainty about the claim and may therefore influence the strength of the arguments being made. Thus, the situation will generate questions about the claim and its warrant while making the argument.

Having a debate about the argument is not a problem as it is educational to the casual reader of the intricacies of the internal combustion engine. This is why I find this thread interesting.

Peel away the emotive layer and there is loads of useful information and interesting points of view; and new questions emerge that begs to be answered.

Sorry for the philosophical angle, only my 2c worth.....
 
It was a long story ...

Some members of this community claim the authoritarian ... Trying to prove to everyone that they are well versed in grades .... ... And argue with them, just to get dirty ...., and they got used to it!

I would like to express its support for the AR and specifically Rich. You rock! Keep up the good work. And the Internet even more experts farts in the air!

If someone $ 4600 a lot - it is necessary to make more money!)


p/s/ Is it true that in Australia all go upside down?))
 
Aaaargh I leave you guys alone.......;)

I went into this eyes open, expecting to have to tune the bike.

I was clearly hoping the untuned stock pipe would crack some extra HP but wasn't banking on it, tuning was always on the cards as with previous aftermarket pipes I've had. It was only a bit was disappointing at the time because I always hope this time will be different! I have no doubt that I was a victim of advertising, which is ironic because I work in that industry.

I also hadn't accounted for he vast differences between dynos, which after my conversation with Todd outlined earlier in this thread, also put things into perspective. All the claims of the final results from AR in terms of HP & TQ look feasible with the right dyno setup.

With regards to heat I never really expected the pipe to be cooler even though it might end up being so, and Rich has already offered a shield if required, so that's a non issue for me.

Forums discussions miss the nuances of face to face contact, and the written word can sometimes be a blunt instrument, often reflecting the heat of the moment, and, on reflection not always what we might have said in a real conversation.

I tried really hard to keep my posts in this thread as un-emotive and factual as possible whilst conveying my genuine emotions at the time. I did this to avoid denigrating AR's reputation because I know that tuning is not an exact science and my results were preliminary. IMHO it would be great if both sides of the argument could respect that and do the same.

I run my own business and I know how much personal time, money and commitment that takes so I have some empathy with Rich. I am passionate about what I do and also pretty protective of my company and my brand, but I've also learnt to be more circumspect in social media. If you wouldn't say it to their face then don't say it!

For those that are still following this thread for news on the pipe, I have ridden the untuned bike for a couple of hours today and I am excited (again)

From a performance perspective clearly the fuelling is f****d so there are all sorts of small issues, not least a gaping hole in the torque curve and a gentle surging that wasn't there previously BUT low down I can already feel the performance potential. All things considered though the bike ran well, at both low and medium speeds. Ultimately the tune will nail this.

The bike will need a heat shield but we knew that already right?

The sound at idle and low revs is growing on me, very race bike but any real throttle action and it growls beautifully. Gun it and it positively howls! Cars are jumping out the way! I passed between two dawdling roadtrains and nailed it and it was spine tingling hearing the sound ricochet off their trailers.

From the aesthetics perspective I really like the way the pipe/belly pan fit the lines of the bike better, as they don't 'hang' underneath. The large slash cut looks mint and the carbon is decent quality, fairly closely matching OEM but not exact. I wish there was less 'air' showing between the pipes and the carbon because it makes the carbon look a bit flimsy even though its not. Overall though the looks get a big thumbs up, despite thenAR sticker that I haven't had time to remove yet, sorry Rich ;)

We are going to be tuning Wedneaday/Thursday next week. It will be tuned on the more conservative dyno so I would be ecstatic with 180hp peak and really good mid-range. On the BunburyDyno I would expect that to be around the 190hp mark based on Todd's feedback.

At the end of the day I won't be going back to my Termi slips regardless. More soon, let me know if I missed anything.
 
Last edited:
Some pics

Here is a pic from today, can only do one at a time on a bloody ipad
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    93.2 KB
And another

And yes I know I haven't taken the left side!!! Will take some better ones tomorrow. It looks really clean and neutral as when on side stand its not noticeable at all.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    87.5 KB
Final one

Had to doctor this a bit, was dark.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    97.4 KB
WAfatboy said:
Aaaargh I leave you guys alone.......;)

I went into this eyes open, expecting to have to tune the bike.

I was clearly hoping the untuned stock pipe would crack some extra HP but wasn't banking on it, tuning was always on the cards as with previous aftermarket pipes I've had. It was only a bit was disappointing at the time because I always hope this time will be different! I have no doubt that I was a victim of advertising, which is ironic because I work in that industry.

I also hadn't accounted for he vast differences between dynos, which after my conversation with Todd outlined earlier in this thread, also put things into perspective. All the claims of the final results from AR in terms of HP & TQ look feasible with the right dyno setup.

With regards to heat I never really expected the pipe to be cooler even though it might end up being so, and Rich has already offered a shield if required, so that's a non issue for me.

Forums discussions miss the nuances of face to face contact, and the written word can sometimes be a blunt instrument, often reflecting the heat of the moment, and, on reflection not always what we might have said in a real conversation.

I tried really hard to keep my posts in this thread as un-emotive and factual as possible whilst conveying my genuine emotions at the time. I did this to avoid denigrating AR's reputation because I know that tuning is not an exact science and my results were preliminary. IMHO it would be great if both sides of the argument could respect that and do the same.

I run my own business and I know how much personal time, money and commitment that takes so I have some empathy with Rich. I am passionate about what I do and also pretty protective of my company and my brand, but I've also learnt to be more circumspect in social media. If you wouldn't say it to their face then don't say it!

For those that are still following this thread for news on the pipe, I have ridden the untuned bike for a couple of hours today and I am excited (again)

From a performance perspective clearly the fuelling is f****d so there are all sorts of small issues, not least a gaping hole in the torque curve and a gentle surging that wasn't there previously BUT low down I can already feel the performance potential. All things considered though the bike ran well, at both low and medium speeds. Ultimately the tune will nail this.

The bike will need a heat shield but we knew that already right?

The sound at idle and low revs is growing on me, very race bike but any real throttle action and it growls beautifully. Gun it and it positively howls! Cars are jumping out the way! I passed between two dawdling roadtrains and nailed it and it was spine tingling hearing the sound ricochet off their trailers.

From the aesthetics perspective I really like the way the pipe/belly pan fit the lines of the bike better, as they don't 'hang' underneath. The large slash cut looks mint and the carbon is decent quality, fairly closely matching OEM but not exact. I wish there was less 'air' showing between the pipes and the carbon because it makes the carbon look a bit flimsy even though its not. Overall though the looks get a big thumbs up, despite thenAR sticker that I haven't had time to remove yet, sorry Rich ;)

We are going to be tuning Wedneaday/Thursday next week. It will be tuned on the more conservative dyno so I would be ecstatic with 180hp peak and really good mid-range. On the BunburyDyno I would expect that to be around the 190hp mark based on Todd's feedback.

At the end of the day I won't be going back to my Termi slips regardless. More soon, let me know if I missed anything.
Click to expand...


Thanks FatBoy...some of us are still very interested in what you are doing!

Sorry your thread got so sidetracked:cool:
 
Rich might have gotten a bit aggressive in his marketing/advertising of his product vs termis/stock(without tuning) to better sell/market the product but that isn't uncommon. Perhaps we held him to a higher standard because he has contributed here but this isn't something we should be surprised with as everybody in this industry does it. You can't market an exhaust system and not claim /some/ improvement without requiring the end-user to tailor the sum of the parts after changing one of those parts. . .

That being said - all dyno's produced before Ducati released their "fixed" map for the 1199 are essentially now irrelevant. You need to compare the post-fixed ecu with whatever is being done now to get a decent baseline against stock. Ducati did fix a bunch of stuff late last year. On top of that - even with Ducati's tuned upmap, there is still room to tune that unit even more(rexxer/rapid/tuneboy/motec/mm/microtec/etc) to get a more optimal power/torque curve. I don't know how the AR will fare against a termi with upmap or a termi with tuned map but I imagine AR will be able to get a bit more there but that would be the fair fight to be looked at.

And as others have said - you do need to dyno tune essentially like to like. That means ram air, setup, etc and even preferably similar temp and humidity conditions as those can play a part as well.
 
WAf looks fantastic! (I agree re: AR sticker ;) )

AR really looks amazing on the Pani!


PS WAf so the INCONEL is giving off similar levels of heat?
 

Similar threads

Thadius
For Sale 2020 V4S F/S Colorado
Replies
5
Views
480
Thadius
Thadius
D
Help! 1299 doesn’t make power above 9500rpm
Replies
9
Views
703
Dark
D
M
A little shoutout to Ducati Omaha Parts Department
Replies
11
Views
578
BP PanigaleV4S
BP PanigaleV4S
Sheikh
Inexpensive power/rideability upgrade
Replies
17
Views
2K
Sheikh
Sheikh
A
Grey/Graphite colour material discovered oil change 1500miles (2500km)
Replies
11
Views
295
baggerman
baggerman

Register CTA

Register on Ducati Forum! This sidebar will go away, and you will see fewer ads.

Recent Discussions

Back
Top