AR Inconel Install

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Are you kidding? Engineering effective exhausts are not simple, diameter, shape length all play a part. Provide some evidence you are using to accuse you have not proven that AR with a tune is worse than Termi with an equivalent tune.

By tune i mean a custom tune optimized by same tuner with same software.

Once you have an apples to apples test then you have evidence.

Let's stop confusing the issues here, PLEASE! FORGET THE TUNE! TAKE THAT VARIABLE OUT!

Rich stated as per above that gains are "way" better with his system, no tune necessary. Can we ALL agree to this?
 
Are you kidding? Engineering effective exhausts are not simple, diameter, shape length all play a part. Provide some evidence you are using to accuse you have not proven that AR with a tune is worse than Termi with an equivalent tune.

By tune i mean a custom tune optimized by same tuner with same software.

Once you have an apples to apples test then you have evidence.

Why would it be Gavin's job to prove anything? That would fall on the manufacture wouldn't it? And there's only one manufacturer that I'm aware of claiming to have a superior product.
 
This is all getting a bit silly and heated. This whole thing stems from one fitting on one bike that on that day made 3hp less than the Termi slips. I don't disbelieve Waf at all. AR have quoted from the results they found, they have a very good reputation and I have had great customer service from them and they have dyno'd many panigales now and they are passionate about the bikes and making their products as good as possible. I have no affiliation to AR at all by the way but having met Rich, had my termi system mapped by him using the Rapidbike I liked him and what they are doing at AR.

From the back of this I allowed them to use my bike to develop this system and dyno it as much as they like over winter. On the tests they have run they have seen the results that they have quoted over the past few months. What is true is that my bike made 176whp with the original up map and Termi system, now it makes 191whp, is much lighter, sounds insane, has a much fuller midrange and looks better.

People are talking about the Akra (who make great products) but no one has even seen one of these in the flesh let alone tuned one. Maybe it will be great maybe not.

I think AR have been amazingly open and have only reported as they have found things, they are trying (and Id say succeeding) in producing some seriously great products for our bikes, they are bikers first and foremost, not a big company at all, AR is basically Rich.

Lets all just calm down, forums always get like this no matter what the subject. I'm getting my bike back tomorrow and ill ride over the weekend and give my views of the AR including riding in town without the heat shield.

Personally I am very happy thus far, I hope Waf will see the results he wanted and he is happy with his AR system as many other (non forum) buyers are.
 
This is all getting a bit silly and heated. This whole thing stems from one fitting on one bike that on that day made 3hp less than the Termi slips. I don't disbelieve Waf at all. AR have quoted from the results they found, they have a very good reputation and I have had great customer service from them and they have dyno'd many panigales now and they are passionate about the bikes and making their products as good as possible. I have no affiliation to AR at all by the way but having met Rich, had my termi system mapped by him using the Rapidbike I liked him and what they are doing at AR.

From the back of this I allowed them to use my bike to develop this system and dyno it as much as they like over winter. On the tests they have run they have seen the results that they have quoted over the past few months. What is true is that my bike made 176whp with the original up map and Termi system, now it makes 191whp, is much lighter, sounds insane, has a much fuller midrange and looks better.

People are talking about the Akra (who make great products) but no one has even seen one of these in the flesh let alone tuned one. Maybe it will be great maybe not.

I think AR have been amazingly open and have only reported as they have found things, they are trying (and Id say succeeding) in producing some seriously great products for our bikes, they are bikers first and foremost, not a big company at all, AR is basically Rich.

Lets all just calm down, forums always get like this no matter what the subject. I'm getting my bike back tomorrow and ill ride over the weekend and give my views of the AR including riding in town without the heat shield.

Personally I am very happy thus far, I hope Waf will see the results he wanted and he is happy with his AR system as many other (non forum) buyers are.

Any heat generated began with AR .... and his accusations etc... We here are simply discussing the merits of the AR system given a forum members experience and self admitted disappointment... so if anyone needs to calm down its AR..
 
I hope WAF has all the success that you appear have had with you system YearOne.

I would also hope to see how much money has been invested into the time and extra components to achieve such a good tune. Dyno time and technicians aren't cheap.

Cost of TB or RB and the limited access to after sales help from these two have already been raised in this thread with good reason.

Perhaps AR should use the info from Your bike tune YearOne to produce a plug and play map to go with their Inconel wonder. :cool:
 
Let's stop confusing the issues here, PLEASE! FORGET THE TUNE! TAKE THAT VARIABLE OUT!

Rich stated as per above that gains are "way" better with his system, no tune necessary. Can we ALL agree to this?

Was Ducati's new map published after Rich's numbers, we all know the new map by ducati made an improvement.

I did find post from Rich showing comparison between termi and AR using stock map for both termi producing 168 and AR producing 184. This was back in November last year so i guess this was the old Ducati map prior to improvement.

I also found a more recent post in which rich tuned both Termi and AR with rapid bike and only yielded a 4+hp gain .

It seem a you are focusing on the 16 hp gain reported last November, i wonder if the New Ducati map can account for the difference?

If the Rich's test in November was using a different Ducati map than the test done recently then tune is important in this discussion as Ducati can improve tuning that would make Prior claims seem dishonest.
 
WAF,

Im going to give you my 2 cents and this may help you achieve the numbers you are looking for. Your photo on post 3 the fan on the dyno set up is wrong. You need two fans one blowing on the bottom radiator to cool the engine and one fan directly going into the ram air duct so the air speed sensor can detect the air speed and get sufficient air flow to the air box the second fan is most important if your dyno only has one fan. The reason I know this is because this is the same problem we encountered when we first dynoed the Pani. We had fits and we saw numbers like you are getting. My tune guy contacted a buddy of his from Ducati and he told us what we had to do. Everything off, disconnect rear wheel sensor etc etc like all the stuff you posted but he stressed the 2 fans location and speed. He told us this this bike is so electrically integrated that it cannot be dynoed like a normal bike that's why all the the magazines reviews showed less power than it really is and most dyno operators are not aware of this. So we put it back on the dyno set it up the way he told us and boom...the increase in HP was dramatic. I have posted my dyno escapades a while back somewhere on this forum and talked about this. I hope this helps?

I had a few people PM me about this and it help them see increases also.
 
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Any heat generated began with AR .... and his accusations etc... We here are simply discussing the merits of the AR system given a forum members experience and self admitted disappointment... so if anyone needs to calm down its AR..


Ok fine but Rich has worked flat out on this for months and months, invested his own money and considerable time into this project, AR really is Rich, this is a small passionate company making innovative ,exciting, beautifully executed products.
 
Ok fine but Rich has worked flat out on this for months and months, invested his own money and considerable time into this project, AR really is Rich, this is a small passionate company making innovative ,exciting, beautifully executed products.

Ok... and??? This allows him to suggest members are trolls and should be banned??? He is a Vendor... he has no right to say such things...
 
Was Ducati's new map published after Rich's numbers, we all know the new map by ducati made an improvement.

I did find post from Rich showing comparison between termi and AR using stock map for both termi producing 168 and AR producing 184. This was back in November last year so i guess this was the old Ducati map prior to improvement.

I also found a more recent post in which rich tuned both Termi and AR with rapid bike and only yielded a 4+hp gain .

It seem a you are focusing on the 16 hp gain reported last November, i wonder if the New Ducati map can account for the difference?

If the Rich's test in November was using a different Ducati map than the test done recently then tune is important in this discussion as Ducati can improve tuning that would make Prior claims seem dishonest.

sifubs,

The latest up map was available and fit to my bike with full system at the middle of October last year (2012). Before Rich made his claims.
 
Things are looking bad and getting worse. I must say as someone reading from the outside with little interest that best business practices is unknown. Glad I am not associated.
 
We're still only talking about the results of one bike, right? I've been wrenching long enough to know that sometimes mistakes can be made during the process of tuning and wrenching that can very well affect the results. We're talking about a small sample and as much as I begin to form an opinion based on the original post, I do realize that the evidence supporting ARs claims are also valid (AR has a stellar reputation).

AR, unlike no other manufacturer, came to us and allowed us to be part of the product development and design and truly appreciated our feedback during the development cycle. That says a hell of a lot about them--namely that they care about what we think. I've seen enough from Rich product-wise and post-wise, to believe that there's no way he'd intentionally mislead us.

With all the effort Rich put into ARs exhaust I completely understand his defensive reaction. (I'm pretty sure he'll agree he went a little too far after drinking a cold beer, though.) I'm suspending any judgement--and suspect that after the dust clears a different picture will emerge.
 
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Things are looking bad and getting worse. I must say as someone reading from the outside with little interest that best business practices is unknown. Glad I am not associated.

Except that so far this whole thing is based on ONE dyno run that may well not have been done correctly. The gains over the Termi system from November were run using the original up map as fitted to my bike and all UK bikes at the time. The AR system still makes more power than the Termi on my bike both before and after tuning, this much is fact as I was standing next to it when the runs were done.

Ill report back when iv ridden my bike, personally I can't wait to see what 190whp feels like and sounds like:)
 
Ok... and??? This allows him to suggest members are trolls and should be banned??? He is a Vendor... he has no right to say such things...
I thought you said a while ago that this was a forum for members to post their views? Is it my understanding that you're now saying vendors are held to some other rule that don't apply to you or me? Going back to the original issue posted by WAF, it seems as though there could have been some dyno setup issues that directly effected the results as Scrapper and Rich have suggested? We should all probably follow YearOne's suggestion and just calm down a bit and wait for some tangible results from WAF?
 
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Also someone was questioning what makes the AR system different, why it works and what's the draw of Inconel: The exhausts on Formula 1 cars are made from Inconel and the AR system was designed and is made by a company that make and design exhausts that run on said F1 cars. These guys really know their stuff.
 
I thought you said a while ago that this was a forum for members to post their views? Is it my understanding that you're now saying vendors are held to some other rule that don't apply to you or me? Going back to the original issue posted by WAF, it seems as though there could have been some dyno setup issues that directly effected the results as Scrapper and Rich have suggest? We should all probably follow YearOne's suggestion and just calm down a bit and wait for some tangle results from WA?

You are right sir.. I did indeed.. Are Vendors members in the true sense?? I own a 1199... To the best of my knowledge AR doesn't.. so yes I guess in a way I feel vendors are a sort of associate member.. Ok maybe facetious ..but when a vendor suggests I should be banned I get a little antsy..
 
If you look past some of the emotive wrapping there is a lot of useful information in this thread. In addition, there are some very interesting and valid questions being posed. Having these questions answered should be of interest to us all. I'm looking forward to the posting of further data to substantiate claims and get a factual basis for differences between products on offer.
 

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