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Damn, missed the quotes, thanks.
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Damn, missed the quotes, thanks.
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No, different bikes, two 1199, same dyno, same day, back to back.
We'll source a Termi bike with the DP upmap that was developed by Termi running on its ECU. The AR bike will have a custom map running on the bike ECU developed using Tuneboy software.
So both bikes will be running maps on the OEM ECU.
That should surely be a close enough comparison to answer the key questions, although clearly it would be even more definitive if it were the same bike.
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Its about as close as you are going to get now...But the TB is an extra (Not a module but obviously a tune).. and given that then perhaps you will see more power.... but lets be apples to apples here... the AR was sold as an off the shelf improvement to be compared to the Termi..adding dyno time and an expensive TB ecu tune isn't exactly a fair comparo or what we were sold by AR....IMHO
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exactly. as far as i am concerned, WAf did enough to prove that on the SAME dyno the AR did not deliver. why can i type this? because as per AR, you get big gains just by installing their system and with no tuning. this is AR's claim. we extrapolate that tuning improves already improved results ergo WAf proved that AR's claims for his SPECIFIC install are NOT as per AR's claims.
apologies for the convoluted pseudo-legalize argument above, but i think it makes the point.
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Generic tuning, not specifically for your bike. But we're not getting anywhere with this so lets just agree to wait and see. WA seems to be on this so i'm sure we'll get some results sooner rather than later.C'mon LOL. Tuning is a given for any exhaust to get the best results. I'm sure you know this
Then why not mention it??? Termis come with "tuning" included ....(thumb drive map).. so if you are going to compare then surely there needs to be some caveat attached to AR's claims...otherwise they appear disingenuous at best...
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it'd be nice to have both bikes tested with same exact setup to establish they are both putting out the HP that they are putting out. but that's no small order.
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Of course... but I will still maintain the apples to apples comparo has now become redundant... so AR better show a huge gain if they're to maintain any credibility here...IMHO
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One note though, it seem like only Wayne can properly tune a bike using tuneboy software. Although tuneboy is advertised as a "do it yourself" tool, you need to know very well what you are doing ( not to mention how unreliable it is, i had a bad experience with it a few years ago) and I couldnt locate any professional in using it. So then, who cares how the AR system performs with it ?(at least in US). The comparison should be done with the rapidbike module as it is sold by AR (no additional tuning) and the Termi system with its latest upmap (no additional tuning).
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Agree, but only if the rapid bike module is included in the price of the AR exhaust.
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In order for an apples to apples comparison to see the capability of the exhaust it would seem appropriate to get dyno results of both exhausts with the stock un-tuned ecu then again with tuning (rapid bilk or tuneboy).
If we compare termi with the upmap vs AR with rapid bike then how will we know if the gains are because of exhaust, tuning or both.
I wouldn't say that the upmap/factory tuning would be equivalent to a custom tune as Ducati will have constraints(emissions,mileage etc) to deal with that individual tuners don't care about.
It may be that tuning the termi with Rapid bike or other tuning means may give better results than tuning AR or vice-versa.
Until someone conducts a reasonable(2 different exhausts each having a custom tune by the same tuner) test it'll just be pure speculation as to which performs best(power, torque etc).
If we compare termi with the upmap vs AR with rapid bike then how will we know if the gains are because of exhaust, tuning or both.
I wouldn't say that the upmap/factory tuning would be equivalent to a custom tune as Ducati will have constraints(emissions,mileage etc) to deal with that individual tuners don't care about.
It may be that tuning the termi with Rapid bike or other tuning means may give better results than tuning AR or vice-versa.
Until someone conducts a reasonable(2 different exhausts each having a custom tune by the same tuner) test it'll just be pure speculation as to which performs best(power, torque etc).
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the comparison is about performance, not about price..
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Noooooooo... the comparo is about the product..Termi comes with a map..AR's doesn't (W/o RB module).. so AR's claims of their system Vs Termi become moot..
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Oh, ok. Then I'll make the claim that Checa's 1199RS Termi exhaust is higher performing than the 1199S with the AR exhaust. Seriously
This is ALL about cost. The issue is that people are thinking of investing a lot of money into a product that may NOT live up to it's owner generated hype. The info suggest you need far more than just the price of the exhaust. $1000 for fueling & dyno, buy a Termi heat shield since AR doesn't supply one and heat is no different (see earlier post by Rich) for starters. The point is, this was touted as a product that is superior in every way...at a certain cost.
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For the moment lets get the raw objective performance numbers then each can make the cost decision.
We already have numbers without tuning (regardless of how low the numbers seem since its on the same bike, dyno etc).
If it turns out the difference is 20 hp one way or the other(after custom tune) then this may be worth $2000.00(for example) to someone, however it this becomes 5hp then it might not be worth the cost difference.
At this point comparing exhaust to exhaust assuming is whet's needed both with a custom tune (assuming same cost to tune both using the same software , dyno and tuner) then the cost differential is down to the cost of the exhaust(AR Full to Termi Full or AR Full to Termi Slip on).
We already have numbers without tuning (regardless of how low the numbers seem since its on the same bike, dyno etc).
If it turns out the difference is 20 hp one way or the other(after custom tune) then this may be worth $2000.00(for example) to someone, however it this becomes 5hp then it might not be worth the cost difference.
At this point comparing exhaust to exhaust assuming is whet's needed both with a custom tune (assuming same cost to tune both using the same software , dyno and tuner) then the cost differential is down to the cost of the exhaust(AR Full to Termi Full or AR Full to Termi Slip on).
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Raw data?? We already have raw data... same bike same dyno same day same tuner equaled a loss of 3hp compared to Termi slips.... How much more raw do you want???
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If you purchase an Akrapovic system or slip on as I have in the past, you can expect a moderate improvement as per manufacturers claims.
If I wish to spend more hard earned cash on Dyno time and modules or jetting I can again expect an improvement in torque and power over the manufacturers claims.
I would feel pretty pissed off if I had to spend the extra dosh on the Dyno time and modules and professional help just to get a basic improvement let alone to attempt to get to the manufacturers claims.
AR and Rich categorically derided the Termi full system claiming "it produces less power than the slip on" and this is simply not true.
Ducati make moderate claims and achieve said claims as has been shown in some posts above. One member quotes two full systems with std DP maps that show 180hp and 186 hp respectively which is pretty close to what Ducati claim.
Ducati claim 195 hp at the crank. Termi claim full system will save 2kg and add approximately 5% power increase.
195 + 5% = 204.75hp at the crank. (9.75hp increase)
The average and universally excepted power loss from crank to rear wheel is approximately 10% due to mechanical and frictional influences. Reduce the loss to have serious gains!
204.75 - 10% = 184.275hp at the rear wheel (20.475hp decrease)
As approximately claimed by Ducati. A company that historically under estimates these figures to avoid ridicule.
If I wish to spend more hard earned cash on Dyno time and modules or jetting I can again expect an improvement in torque and power over the manufacturers claims.
I would feel pretty pissed off if I had to spend the extra dosh on the Dyno time and modules and professional help just to get a basic improvement let alone to attempt to get to the manufacturers claims.
AR and Rich categorically derided the Termi full system claiming "it produces less power than the slip on" and this is simply not true.
Ducati make moderate claims and achieve said claims as has been shown in some posts above. One member quotes two full systems with std DP maps that show 180hp and 186 hp respectively which is pretty close to what Ducati claim.
Ducati claim 195 hp at the crank. Termi claim full system will save 2kg and add approximately 5% power increase.
195 + 5% = 204.75hp at the crank. (9.75hp increase)
The average and universally excepted power loss from crank to rear wheel is approximately 10% due to mechanical and frictional influences. Reduce the loss to have serious gains!
204.75 - 10% = 184.275hp at the rear wheel (20.475hp decrease)
As approximately claimed by Ducati. A company that historically under estimates these figures to avoid ridicule.
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Stw and his followers.
You would certainly not show so much disrespect to me and Austinracing if you were aware just how much time and effort was spent on bringing such a fantastic looking, sounding, weight saving, innovative exhaust system to Panigale owners around the globe. Do you see this from other exhaust manufacturers? NO
Like for like tests are as said, like for like tests.
A fully open race system requires fuelling to optimise it.
If you bolt our system on and run it against a set of termi slip ons with up map then it's not like for like, is it. The AR system should also be run with an equivalent map.
You should read previous threads and learn from them before you state such ludicrous wafflings.
I can only hope you end up banned!
To all the decent members I appolagise for this outburst but enough is enough of this crap!
You would certainly not show so much disrespect to me and Austinracing if you were aware just how much time and effort was spent on bringing such a fantastic looking, sounding, weight saving, innovative exhaust system to Panigale owners around the globe. Do you see this from other exhaust manufacturers? NO
Like for like tests are as said, like for like tests.
A fully open race system requires fuelling to optimise it.
If you bolt our system on and run it against a set of termi slip ons with up map then it's not like for like, is it. The AR system should also be run with an equivalent map.
You should read previous threads and learn from them before you state such ludicrous wafflings.
I can only hope you end up banned!
To all the decent members I appolagise for this outburst but enough is enough of this crap!
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