AR Inconel Install

VAST · Apr 26, 2013

without the baffles it IS a straight pipe, a circuitous straight pipe.

and it is WAY lighter!

and looks fantastic!

want 190hp+? get the beemer.

Gavin D said:
This all brings me back to one of my first posts asking how AR got the results.

The AR system is of similar or same diameter as the standard system according to Rich when talking about heat shields. Definitely not a 70mm diameter like the Termi.

Back pressure is altered by length and the number of bends and the radius of the bend. Plus the diameter and then lastly baffles.

While you may not get peak torque or BHP until you get the ram air effect it is more than reasonable to expect some noticeable gains in mid range and BHP along the way without the ram air.

It was just a simple question with no malice at all that seemed to elicit the hostility from Rich with the initial name calling when I and others were labelled TROLLS.

*This system is a farce.
*This system is not a straight pipe but simply one that is less restricted than standard.
*The Termi full system does give immediate bolt on gains without dyno time or aftermarket tuning
*The AR system does not!
*RAM AIR is not new technology and has never caused such a fuss in the past. Yes I do acknowledge that it makes a significant difference at the top end, BUT ONLY AT THE TOP END.
*There have been many fuel injected bikes with RAM AIR and while they all have there intricacies it will again only be at the very top end that the air speed is relevant.
*The Dyno experts working on WAFs bike said with nothing to gain from the opinion that he would have got better results from the flipping SLIP ONs and a tune alone!

All those chipping in late with an opinion would be wise to read all posts from the start before jumping on the FANBOY bandwagon! JUST SAYIN!

Gavin D · Apr 26, 2013

VAST said:
without the baffles it IS a straight pipe, a circuitous straight pipe.

and it is WAY lighter!

and looks fantastic!

want 190hp+? get the beemer.

straight |streɪt|
adjective
1 extending or moving uniformly in one direction only; without a curve or bend: a long, straight road.

SPJ · Apr 26, 2013

Gavin D - to be fair to Rich he didn't bite until 10 pages into this thread when a fair few had more or less called him a liar and trashed Austin Racing. When it's your own company and a fair amount of flak has come your way I can't say I blame him for an outburst.

I've no affiliation to AR however in my limited dealings with them they've been bang on. I know of at least several guys who have fitted the AR exhaust and are very happy with it - several of which have posted here. I have no reason to doubt Rich's claims or his integrity. Perhaps what everyone should take from this thread is that the AR system will require further tuning once fitted. WAF (who has my sympathy) is the first and only case I've heard of where there has been a problem optimising the system.

After a couple of days away i'm amazed to see this thread at 582 posts. It has largely degenerated and most of the posts are pointless, a clear case for moderators IMO. Stw (no offense) is up to 98 posts as I type, just 3 posters on here make up over 31% of all comments when to the best of my knowledge none of you have even seen the system let alone fit it or had it tuned. I think it's time to move on, after all don't we all have bikes to ride...

My final post on this subject.

VAST · Apr 26, 2013

Gavin D said:
straight |streɪt|
adjective
1 extending or moving uniformly in one direction only; without a curve or bend: a long, straight road.

have you ever seen any mc pipe without a curve or bend? NEVER!

in this case, a straight pipe is one without baffles and/or CANS a la termi and akro and stock. make sense?

Gavin D · Apr 26, 2013

SPJ said:
Gavin D - to be fair to Rich he didn't bite until 10 pages into this thread when a fair few had more or less called him a liar and trashed Austin Racing.

I respect your opinion but as I said please read from the start. YOU ARE WRONG.

Trauma · Apr 26, 2013

VAST said:
have you ever seen any mc pipe without a curve or bend? NEVER!

in this case, a straight pipe is one without baffles and/or CANS a la termi and akro and stock. make sense?

In the industry and my whole life, a "running straight pipes" means no muffler, period. I have never in my life seen a pipe without at least one bend/curve,

ttkarp · Apr 26, 2013

SPJ said:
Gavin D - to be fair to Rich he didn't bite until 10 pages into this thread when a fair few had more or less called him a liar and trashed Austin Racing. When it's your own company and a fair amount of flak has come your way I can't say I blame him for an outburst.

I've no affiliation to AR however in my limited dealings with them they've been bang on. I know of at least several guys who have fitted the AR exhaust and are very happy with it - several of which have posted here. I have no reason to doubt Rich's claims or his integrity. Perhaps what everyone should take from this thread is that the AR system will require further tuning once fitted. WAF (who has my sympathy) is the first and only case I've heard of where there has been a problem optimising the system.

After a couple of days away i'm amazed to see this thread at 582 posts. It has largely degenerated and most of the posts are pointless, a clear case for moderators IMO. Stw (no offense) is up to 98 posts as I type, just 3 posters on here make up over 31% of all comments when to the best of my knowledge none of you have even seen the system let alone fit it or had it tuned. I think it's time to move on, after all don't we all have bikes to ride...

My final post on this subject.

Amazing. Can everyone in England count that well?

Maybe you're right. Everyone should just take Rich's word that his exhaust is far superior to the Termi system, despite the fact that the only one who has determined that anywhere in the world is Rich. I mean, several people you know have said they like it, and Rich seems nice. And you're right, I've never touched it and I don't own it. I've also never been a politician or a football player, but I have opinions on those subjects. Shame on me. I do agree though. Despite initial claims, it DOES need expensive tuning in order to equal the performance of the competition. Most importantly, and certainly the #1 reason to take his word is this: He and several fans have explained, unlike every other manufacturer evidently, he spent sooooo much time developing it. Proof enough for me. Where do I send my $6,000? But thanks for chiming in. Your opinion is highly valued.

WAfatboy · Apr 26, 2013

ScrapperX said:
Stw, You are correct, it should be applied to all systems "apples to apples". I know that with the Termi full system on all the bikes we have dynoed showed a consistant 169HP on the rear wheel when we didn't supply the air down the intake and all showed 185+ HP when we did supply the air down the intake. What was interesting that the stock headers showed more (172 hp) than the termi without air being supplied. When we put air down the ram air the stock headers went to 176 ish but it way less than the Termi full system at 185+. We haven't dynoed an AR like WAF is doing but he could be experiencing what we have seen between the stock headers and Termi full system.

Scrapper that is exactly what we've experienced 'sans air',although the details have got lost in this thread. My bike did 172 with slips and the bike with full Termis did 169 and big hole in TQ curve. This and the results from Copiya's bike are why I'm not querying the peak HP.

Really having come this far I want to finish the job. It seems long and drawn out simply because of how long in between its taking to get the work done.

I still believe that the physics of this thing could be what's holding us back. My local guy dyno guy is stubbornly telling me air doesn't matter but I'm holding out to see the thing run on another dyno.

Lets be clear I've got a beautifully tuned bike now (with cruise

) but I'm buggered if I'm just going to leave it at that.

bradp51 · Apr 26, 2013

WAfatboy said:
Scrapper that is exactly what we've experienced 'sans air',although the details have got lost in this thread. My bike did 172 with slips and the bike with full Termis did 169 and big hole in TQ curve. This and the results from Copiya's bike are why I'm not querying the peak HP.

Really having come this far I want to finish the job. It seems long and drawn out simply because of how long in between its taking to get the work done.

I still believe that the physics of this thing could be what's holding us back. My local guy dyno guy is stubbornly telling me air doesn't matter but I'm holding out to see the thing run on another dyno.

Lets be clear I've got a beautifully tuned bike now (with cruise ) but I'm buggered if I'm just going to leave it at that.

I am no dyno expert mate but it will be interesting what results you get on a different dyne. I am sure they will be different but how else could it be with a new set of conditions for your test. If the numbers are better or worse which set of numbers do you believe.

Difficult situation to be in when searching for truth and facts. Good luck with it and good to see you have the pump to battle on.

oalvarez · Apr 26, 2013

nyandy said:
The next step is to have it re-mapped and dyno tuned. I'll be sure to post up once it's tuned and properly fueled (which I'm really looking forward to) post putting some miles on it.

oalvarez said:
As I said earlier, the exhaust kit is an absolute work of art, the materials, welds and craftsmanship appear to be like no other. My question is related to fueling; is it really that bad using the stock ECU? Am I right in saying that for the $3,500-$4,000 one still has to spend money on a re-mapped ECU and/or dyno time to get the fueling to an acceptable level?

Congrats once again to the people at AR

Rich22 said:
Thanks

You can run with stock fuelling without any problems. It will also work with the upmaps from other exhaust manufacturers.

i asked the question (shown above) on a different thread in response to NYAndy's comment about wanting to have his bike and newly installed AR exhaust dyno tuned. also shown is the response from the people at AR. i do believe their answer, which is, that the system "will run with stock fueling without any problems." perhaps i should have worded the question differently, but it's somewhat apparent by reading the last five to six pages of this thread that the system doesn't simply bolt on and produce the power that is claimed?? without further tuning which was the basis of my question. or does the system deliver as promised but simply falls short in comparison to some other exhaust system? does the system provide the expected results in its stock form or does further manipulation, parts, fueling work, intevention, etc. need to be performed to obtain such numbers? one thing is for sure, performance should not be less than what is produced by the stock exhuast, it doesn't seem as though anyone is suggesting that. so what is the gripe?

ttkarp · Apr 26, 2013

oalvarez said:
one thing is for sure, performance should not be less than what is produced by the stock exhuast, it doesn't seem as though anyone is suggesting that. so what is the gripe?

For $5k+ in exhaust, fueling module, and dyno tuning...your happy as long it's not less than what is produced by the stock exhaust? I'd like to refer you to Stw for a sweet deal on ocean front property in Dallas.

WAfatboy · Apr 26, 2013

oalvarez said:
i asked the question (shown above) on a different thread in response to NYAndy's comment about wanting to have his bike and newly installed AR exhaust dyno tuned. also shown is the response from the people at AR. i do believe their answer, which is, that the system "will run with stock fueling without any problems." perhaps i should have worded the question differently, but it's somewhat apparent by reading the last five to six pages of this thread that the system doesn't simply bolt on and produce the power that is claimed?? without further tuning which was the basis of my question. or does the system deliver as promised but simply falls short in comparison to some other exhaust system? does the system provide the expected results in its stock form or does further manipulation, parts, fueling work, intevention, etc. need to be performed to obtain such numbers? one thing is for sure, performance should not be less than what is produced by the stock exhuast, it doesn't seem as though anyone is suggesting that. so what is the gripe?

There is only one issue for me. That is the performance increase over the Termi slipons that I had on the bike originally, both in mid-range (most important) and peak HP.

All of the claims were that the AR system would deliver on both but to date we have been unable to replicate said gains at either top end or mid range. The level ram air used (or not) during tuning is the issue apparently.

I will be taking the bike to a dyno (BunburyDyno) with a history of high numbers for 1199 which are actually higher than the results AR saw for both slips and Termi full system. They have a better ram air setup than my local.

Given BunburyDyno have been able to extract 193hp from the full system, which is also a wide, free flowing pipe, this bodes well for the AR system. AR managed to extract 186hp from a Termi full system with RB module.

This dyno graph from Bunbury shows that they made about 7hp over the stock bike with full Termis.
http://www.bunburydyno.com/DYNO/DUCATI/1199 BHP std vs 70mm full system with std ecu map.pdf

ttkarp · Apr 26, 2013

WAfatboy said:
There is only one issue for me. That is the performance increase over the Termi slipons that I had on the bike originally, both in mid-range (most important) and peak HP.

All of the claims were that the AR system would deliver on both but to date we have been unable to replicate said gains at either top end or mid range. The level ram air used (or not) during tuning is the issue apparently.

I will be taking the bike to a dyno (BunburyDyno) with a history of high numbers for 1199 which are actually higher than the results AR saw for both slips and Termi full system. They have a better ram air setup than my local.

Given BunburyDyno have been able to extract 193hp from the full system, which is also a wide, free flowing pipe, this bodes well for the AR system. AR managed to extract 186hp from a Termi full system with RB module.

This dyno graph from Bunbury shows that they made about 7hp over the stock bike with full Termis.
http://www.bunburydyno.com/DYNO/DUCATI/1199 BHP std vs 70mm full system with std ecu map.pdf

Does it concern you that your going to a high reading dyno with only the AR and not the termis for comparison? It's almost guaranteed you'll see high numbers, but what does that really mean with nothing to compare it to on your own bike?

Stw · Apr 26, 2013

Hey Waf... good luck with this ever continuing search for results.. It appears this bunbury dyno has a history of big numbers... How are you going to factor this run against your original Termi slips?? I mean we have lost the true comparison now so how you do read any number you get now??

Lol..You beat me to it Tt...

WAfatboy · Apr 26, 2013

ttkarp said:
Does it concern you that your going to a high reading dyno with only the AR and not the termis for comparison? It's almost guaranteed you'll see high numbers, but what does that really mean with nothing to compare it to on your own bike?

No, because they already have runs for both full Termi & Slips so whilst its not same day back to back I will be able to compare the full throttle power curves as they have all been generated on the same dyno. They will be able to overlay the graphs.

Stw · Apr 26, 2013

WAfatboy said:
No, because they already have runs for both full Termi & Slips so whilst its not same day back to back I will be able to compare the full throttle power curves as they have all been generated on the same dyno. They will be able to overlay the graphs.

So what did they get from the slips???

ttkarp · Apr 26, 2013

WAfatboy said:
No, because they already have runs for both full Termi & Slips so whilst its not same day back to back I will be able to compare the full throttle power curves as they have all been generated on the same dyno. They will be able to overlay the graphs.

Different bike though?

oalvarez · Apr 26, 2013

ttkarp said:
For $5k+ in exhaust, fueling module, and dyno tuning...your happy as long it's not less than what is produced by the stock exhaust? I'd like to refer you to Stw for a sweet deal on ocean front property in Dallas.

Again, I said that the performance should not be less than the stock exhaust and it's not (I did not say "as long as...." so please don't misquote me ). I specifically asked what the gripe was since that wasn't the case.

oalvarez · Apr 26, 2013

WAfatboy said:
There is only one issue for me. That is the performance increase over the Termi slipons that I had on the bike originally, both in mid-range (most important) and peak HP.......

Thank you, WA, I completely understand now. I appreciate the detailed response.

All the best,

2013RedSabs · Apr 26, 2013

My initial understanding was that the AR exhaust would improve performance throughout the power-band, independent of tuning?

To be a fair "apples to apples" type comparison AR should reference their dyno results based on raising volumetric efficiency (VE) through ram air effects + tuning while applying those same conditions to the termi's (or whoever)etc, and provide the evidence to substantiate their claims. The onus shouldn't be on the customer to prove the Vendors claims.

Most of my experience is in forced induction so this is the first time I have heard of a performance claim that is dependent on 150 mph wind speed conditions to become detectable. I can understand Rich including it as an optimized condition but I would assume that wind speed should increase in direct proportion to wheel speed if it is to become relevant to real world applications.

If this were a turbo type application I would expect to see large performance increases with a superior header/exhaust design depending on how many preexisting restrictions existed in the OEM system. Reducing back pressure can improve peak numbers although tuning the exhaust pulses will alter the torque and power curves. Sadly, ultimate performance often comes at the cost of street-ability but so far AR hasn't listed any trade-offs associated with their product (other than purchase/install/dyno costs).

Looking forward to the final dyno sessions. GL OP

AR Inconel Install

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