AR Inconel Install

WAfatboy said:

No, because they already have runs for both full Termi & Slips so whilst its not same day back to back I will be able to compare the full throttle power curves as they have all been generated on the same dyno. They will be able to overlay the graphs.

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So what did they get from the slips???

WAfatboy said:

No, because they already have runs for both full Termi & Slips so whilst its not same day back to back I will be able to compare the full throttle power curves as they have all been generated on the same dyno. They will be able to overlay the graphs.

Click to expand...

Different bike though?

ttkarp said:

For $5k+ in exhaust, fueling module, and dyno tuning...your happy as long it's not less than what is produced by the stock exhaust? I'd like to refer you to Stw for a sweet deal on ocean front property in Dallas.

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Again, I said that the performance should not be less than the stock exhaust and it's not (I did not say "as long as...." so please don't misquote me ). I specifically asked what the gripe was since that wasn't the case.

WAfatboy said:

There is only one issue for me. That is the performance increase over the Termi slipons that I had on the bike originally, both in mid-range (most important) and peak HP.......

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Thank you, WA, I completely understand now. I appreciate the detailed response.

All the best,

My initial understanding was that the AR exhaust would improve performance throughout the power-band, independent of tuning?

To be a fair "apples to apples" type comparison AR should reference their dyno results based on raising volumetric efficiency (VE) through ram air effects + tuning while applying those same conditions to the termi's (or whoever)etc, and provide the evidence to substantiate their claims. The onus shouldn't be on the customer to prove the Vendors claims.

Most of my experience is in forced induction so this is the first time I have heard of a performance claim that is dependent on 150 mph wind speed conditions to become detectable. I can understand Rich including it as an optimized condition but I would assume that wind speed should increase in direct proportion to wheel speed if it is to become relevant to real world applications.

If this were a turbo type application I would expect to see large performance increases with a superior header/exhaust design depending on how many preexisting restrictions existed in the OEM system. Reducing back pressure can improve peak numbers although tuning the exhaust pulses will alter the torque and power curves. Sadly, ultimate performance often comes at the cost of street-ability but so far AR hasn't listed any trade-offs associated with their product (other than purchase/install/dyno costs).

Looking forward to the final dyno sessions. GL OP

Yep the new dyno results will be fascinating.

I really think its worth pointing out that the guys at ProTwin and Wayne from Tuneboy, seem to have done a fine job working within the limitations of the hardware. The bike is very rideable and snappy but I'll be doing 250km this afternoon so will be able to get the full picture. The sound track is pretty special, seems to have deepened a bit with the tune as well. I'm going to a new track tomorrow so another type of test where the work on the engine will show.

The Panigale does not have an "Air speed sensor", it does have a barometric pressure sensor, this allows it to compensate for changes in air pressure.

The Panigale does not have 35mm headers.
The muffler used on the full Termi is the same as the one for the slip-on.

If anyone is interested in some actual tests of ram air they can read this article.

Part 1.

Sport Rider-ram air induction test for sport bike motorcycles

Part 2.

Sport Rider-Ram Air Test of sport bikes on the motorcycle dyno

In these tests they had to use two massive compressors before they could replicate the pressure change in the airbox.
They could not replicate the airbox pressure increase of ram air by simply using a fan blowing air at the front of the bike.
If anyone has data to show otherwise please present it here.
I would love to see the specs for the fan used to generate airbox pressure to match 150 to 200mph on the road.

We tested Copiya's bike with the fan on full speed and running at low speed, HP difference was hard to see on the dyno graph, maybe 1-2hp max.
Our fan has a 3.5kw motor and they claim 14,000 cfm from this fan.

I would love to hear what WAFatboy thinks of the tuning job between untuned AR and tuned AR.
How does the bike feel to ride after the dyno tune.

wmcdonal said:

The Panigale does not have 35mm headers.
The muffler used on the full Termi is the same as the one for the slip-on.

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CORRECTION

code 96450211B
Ducati Corse complete exhaust unit
Complete exhaust system designed by Ducati Corse for the Superstock World Championship 2012. It consists of stainless steel manifolds 2 into 1 into 2 (Ø max 70 mm), and real new silencers with titanium sleeve and removable dB killer. Besides complete hardware, carbon fiber heat guard under the seat and hardware key Up Map for the specific mapping loading are supplied as standard. This kit ensures a lightweight of about 2 kg and maximum power increasing of approximately 5% compared to the standard exhaust system.

wmcdonal said:

The Panigale does not have an "Air speed sensor", it does have a barometric pressure sensor, this allows it to compensate for changes in air pressure.

The Panigale does not have 35mm headers.
The muffler used on the full Termi is the same as the one for the slip-on.

Click to expand...

Your are correct, The technical Term for the Air Speed Sensor is called a MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) Air Sensor. The ECU determine engine load by measuring the manifold air pressure, that's the density part, and correlating it to the engine rpm, which is the speed portion of the equation. The ECU then uses that calculation to determine how much fuel the engine requires under the current conditions. It is technically not how fast the air is coming into the intake but its the volume of air needed for the MAP Air Sensor. According to the Ducati "Experts" that translate to a Dyno fan blowing at 150MPH into the air intake that should give you the volume or density that is needed when trying to achieve max HP. You will never get that amount of air if the fans are pointed at the radiators.

When performing a Dyno test you are not trying to create a supercharge or turbo effect, you are only trying to give the engine the right amount of air so the ECU can look at its "look up table" to determine the proper amount of fuel the bike needs. It will only provide as much fuel as the ECU Look up table dictates. Too much air then the bike will run really lean and you will actually lose power. There is a threshold to the upmaps and thats why tuning is important to make its as efficient as possible.

MAP Air Sensors and here is what they look like:
Ducati Panigale 1199 2012 Map Air Sensors Sensor Switch Set | eBay

You are correct the Pani does not have 35mm Headers it has 50mm headers for the stock and 70mm for the Full Termi System

You are also correct in stating the Termi Slip-on is the same as the one used for the full system

GAVIN D

TAKE NOTE:

Your slanderous untrue accusations aimed at Austinracing.

Your posts have been gathered as evidence against you and have now been passed to a legal team and the forum owners.
A request to ban you has been put forward.

This is an open forum and as such as with Twitter any remarks can be and will be used in evidence to bring a claim against any said individual if the comments are thought to be slanderous, un founded and detrimental to another individual or company.

You will be contacted via email.

What in the hell? I think this (going legal/threatening with a ban) is a really bad way to proceed for any member, let alone a vendor who a lot of members have followed with interest.

Stw, Gavinn, ttkarp and gang have in my view only asked questions and posted their views. These views might be negative but then there are the fanboys too rm4two and that hacked beanflicker guy who post overly positive views.

I think members have the brains to read through and take a decision themselves. Ultimately the basis of these arguments are the dyno charts. Attack with actual information if you have to. Not with lawyers, atleast not here - this is a motorcycle forum after all.

He is clearly out to attempt to tarnish the Austinracing name and possibly even works for another exhaust manufacturer. He has repeatedly made false slanderous accusations, read and you will see.

As you will be aware, if you did this on Twitter you would find yourself in deep trouble. This as an open forum it is no different!

This thread is a worthless full of unfounded information.

Austinracing has built an exhaust system that lives up to its claims. We are happy to prove that over and over again. Any UK customer can come to us where we can perform a comparative like for like test.

Austinracing have a great reputation and name within the biking world and we will simply not accept the ramblings of 1 sad individual trying to blacken our good name.

This is why a request to ban him and legal action will be taken.

Rich22 (Austinracing)

Take note:

I stand by any and all of my posts on this forum with regards to you and your claims re your product.

Any legal action you would like to take will be welcomed with open arms as it will force you to be accountable for your claims re your product.

Shall we say BRING IT ON!

Gavin. I didn't say the superstock exhaust kit used the same muffler.

ScrapperX. The Ducati "Experts" should know that the ECU uses manifold pressure sensors when the throttle is below 20%, over 20% the mapping is based on throttle position and RPM.
MAP sensors don't have anything to do with the fuel delivery at full throttle.

An air speed sensor is something that measures air speed, an air pressure sensor is something that measures pressure, speed and pressure are two different things. Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor is not the technical term for an air speed sensor.
The MAP sensor does not measure volume, a MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor measures volume, the Panigale does not have one of these.

wmcdonal

code 96480141A
Ducati Corse complete exhaust unit
Complete exhaust system designed by Ducati Corse for the Superstock World Championship 2012. It consists of stainless steel manifolds 2 into 1 into 2 (Ø max 70 mm), and real new silencers with titanium sleeve and removable dB killer. Besides complete hardware, carbon fiber heat guard under the seat and hardware key Up Map for the specific mapping loading are supplied as standard. This kit ensures a lightweight of about 2 kg and maximum power increasing of approximately 5% compared to the standard exhaust system.

This is the full Termi system that I purchased for my bike. The one we are all talking about.
2013 has another system available for the Pani which requires the fan be removed for even more power and is only recomended for track use due to the fan removal.

Rich22 said:

He is clearly out to attempt to tarnish the Austinracing name and possibly even works for another exhaust manufacturer. He has repeatedly made false slanderous accusations, read and you will see.

As you will be aware, if you did this on Twitter you would find yourself in deep trouble. This as an open forum it is no different!

This thread is a worthless full of unfounded information.

Austinracing has built an exhaust system that lives up to its claims. We are happy to prove that over and over again. Any UK customer can come to us where we can perform a comparative like for like test.

Austinracing have a great reputation and name within the biking world and we will simply not accept the ramblings of 1 sad individual trying to blacken our good name.

This is why a request to ban him and legal action will be taken.

Click to expand...

This is LOL funny. I think your unfounded claims of superiority and previous bashing of a direct competitor have done far more to harm your credibility (and peak the interest of their lawyers) than some blog questions you don't like.

Rich22 said:

GAVIN D

TAKE NOTE:

Your slanderous untrue accusations aimed at Austinracing.

Your posts have been gathered as evidence against you and have now been passed to a legal team and the forum owners.
A request to ban you has been put forward.

This is an open forum and as such as with Twitter any remarks can be and will be used in evidence to bring a claim against any said individual if the comments are thought to be slanderous, un founded and detrimental to another individual or company.

You will be contacted via email.

Click to expand...

This kind of reaction is absolutely amazing.... AR are now looking really really silly... This whole thread has always been about questioning AR's claims of superiority over Termis and huge power and torque gains...Numbers that Waf has not been able to even get close too... The forum members then asked AR to explain/justify the discrepancies between their advertised numbers and reality... all we got was firstly a ridiculous list of parameters required to show this "gain"... when questioned further Rich then simply started spouting 'Trolls who should be banned" BS and in the myriad of pages of debate that has followed seems have never once contributed anything other than verbal diarrhea...


Banned?? I have never been a believer in banning anyone...But if there was ever a case for banning then Rich22 is the member who should be banned... Threatening legal action against another member is proof positive of this members total inability to join in a debate in an adult fashion and contribute positively.. surely this is a prerequisite of being a forum member and Rich22 you have totally failed this simple test...

Rich22.... You Sir are petty childish and quite simply incapable of adult behaviour and you need to STFU...

Stw

The same applies to you as does to Gavin D

AR have received a very large amount of pm messages from members with regards to you and Gavin D (forum trolls).

You talk rubbish and expect to get away with your childish slanderous comments.

You will not.

FYI, it's technically a MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE ("MAP") sensor.

Rich22 said:

Stw

The same applies to you as does to Gavin D

AR have received a very large amount of pm messages from members with regards to you and Gavin D (forum trolls).

You talk rubbish and expect to get away with your childish slanderous comments.

You will not.

Click to expand...

Rich.... you are amazing... You simply dont get it do you??? I am not going to fall into your childish pattern and threaten anything... I stand by my questions as being valid ,relevant and reasonable,, how anything I have asked can be deemed slanderous is beyond me .,, this is a debate,,, do you not understand what that means?? Oh wait... silly question... My bad..