AR Inconel Install

Gavin D · Apr 28, 2013

DRSapp said:
OK, time to finally post on this thread:

First off, I have the Termi full system and I'm not a fan of AR's system, though I appreciate Rich for developing it and bringing it to market. Competition is the only thing keeping Termi and Akrapovic in check. Lets face it, if Termi was the only system available, a lot of us would pay an extra $k or two just to have it.

Rich's main fault in this is publishing his comparison numbers, both in peak power and noise. As we said nearly a year ago, that's just bad form. Publish your own graphs showing your curves, AFR and an expected average gains. By not doing so, Rich as left himself open for this discontent.

Any turner worth their salt will admit that Peak Power result from a given dyno are worthless if compared to other Peak Power result from another given dyno. You will find that results from different Dynos and taken under different conditions even on the same dyno will differ. Even though CF attempts to correct for temperature and pressure, the environment will vary your results by +/- ~2% or more.

As well as factors in the DYNO machine and environment, the selected Correction Factor (CF) can play a part in the numbers game -

DIN uses 1013mBar and 20 degrees Celsius as the nominal conditions, whereas the SAE uses 990mBar and 25 degrees Celsius as the nominal conditions. DIN also uses absolute air pressure SAE uses dry. Difference being that dry doesn't account for relative humidity.

The formula for CF is too difficult to type in the text area, but the important thing to remember is that CF DIN is usually ~1.16% higher than SAE.

In short, unless every run is under the exact same conditions, the peak numbers mean little. The only true thing to take from a dyno run is the shape of the torque and power curves and the Air/Fuel Ratio.

Gavin D - Subtraction of back pressure without remapping will decrease the fuel to air mixture ratio (Lean out). Running lean will give you more top end power and higher engine running temperature. In tuning term, lean is mean, but you don't want to go too lean least bad things will happen. But that will never be the case for the Termi slip-on our race exhaust mapping.. they'll always be on the safe side. (usually richer than the Stock map)

Addition of Back Pressure without remapping will increase the fuel to air mixture ratio (richen). In moderation, this can add more torque and response down but less top end power. The engine will also run slightly "cooler" due to unburnt fuel. Going too rich will bog down the engine and make it feel sluggish.

Most manufactures tune a little lean to help pass emissions - Lean = a cleaner burn and less work for the catalytic converter.

Picture this if you will - you have a Stock system which is trying to meet noise regulations so is creating back pressure which will in turn richen the fuel mixture. Now Ducati has to back off the fuel to lean out the mixture to to meet EPA and EU3 emission standards. Now you take away the Stock system back pressure by installing an open system ie Termi Slips or full system, the Up Map will have to enrich the mixture.

From the results thus far, I would speculate the RB unit is setup for the Stock map and not the Termi slip/full system upmap. This would cause the extra rich running with the addition of the RB unit and the AR system.

DRSapp

Thanks for the response and I can't agree more with what you have said.

That does contradict a lot of what has been written by self appointed forum experts on here with a number of them claiming making the fuel mix richer would give you more power etc. please read from the start if you have missed them.
Please note I don't believe what I wrote about the exhaust function was totally incorrect just that I was not aware of the effect it could have on the richness/leanness of the fuel. Thanks for making that clear.

Stw · Apr 28, 2013

Cliff notes version of this thread....

Ar's claims for the benefits of their pipe appear dubious at best..
Pipe looks great

Pipe sounds great

Pipe is made of Inconel

Despite claims to the contrary a heat shield is a must

Pipe does'nt produce anywhere close to the numbers previously touted by AR

Air must be blown into your bike at 150mph

98 Ron fuel must be used.
Gavin and I are being sued for questioning the veracity of said claims

Melted fairing have occured on both bikes fitted with AR pipe

RapidBike Module supplied with AR map appears .. well not sure ..shall we say unusable??
There maybe more magical potions/remedies I have omitted here??

Oh..Almost forget... Ozzie tuners and their dynos are crap...

Trauma · Apr 28, 2013

Stw said:
Cliff notes version of this thread....

Ar's claims for the benefits of their pipe appear dubious at best..
Pipe looks great
Pipe sounds great
Pipe is made of Inconel
Despite claims to the contrary a heat shield is a must
Pipe does'nt produce anywhere close to the numbers previously touted by AR
Air must be blown into your bike at 150mph
98 Ron fuel must be used.
Gavin and I are being sued for questioning the veracity of said claims
Melted fairing have occured on both bikes fitted with AR pipe
RapidBike Module supplied with AR map appears .. well not sure ..shall we say unusable??
There maybe more magical potions/remedies I have omitted here??

Oh..Almost forget... Ozzie tuners and their dynos are crap...

2 more items: AR will guarantee results (not specific here what results) only if AR does the install, and Rich will no longer post here as it may interfere with litigation mentioned above.

jjsC6 · Apr 28, 2013

ttkarp said:
Products don't seem to be living up to hype, few people getting sued. Other than that, not really.

Ho Hum.....

Stw said:
Cliff notes version of this thread....

Ar's claims for the benefits of their pipe appear dubious at best..
Pipe looks great
Pipe sounds great
Pipe is made of Inconel
Despite claims to the contrary a heat shield is a must
Pipe does'nt produce anywhere close to the numbers previously touted by AR
Air must be blown into your bike at 150mph
98 Ron fuel must be used.
Gavin and I are being sued for questioning the veracity of said claims
Melted fairing have occured on both bikes fitted with AR pipe
RapidBike Module supplied with AR map appears .. well not sure ..shall we say unusable??
There maybe more magical potions/remedies I have omitted here??

Oh..Almost forget... Ozzie tuners and their dynos are crap...

Great recap - you da man!

Trauma said:
2 more items: AR will guarantee results (not specific here what results) only if AR does the install, and Rich will no longer post here as it may interfere with litigation mentioned above.

When in doubt, blame the customers.

Gee, who would have seen all this coming on an internet forum

Castor Troy · Apr 28, 2013

Geez, this situation is a mess

DRSapp · Apr 28, 2013

STw - for your notes:

Research Octane Number (RON)
Motor Octane Number (MON)

EU and UK use straight RON for their ratings.
US and the Amreicas use (RON+MON)/2

For standard "pump" gas, MON (on average) is 10% lower than RON.

98 RON = (98 -10% + 98)/2 = 93 US Octane

ttkarp · Apr 28, 2013

Castor Troy said:
Geez, this situation is a mess

Easy there troll. Better have your attorney ready after that outburst

Stw · Apr 28, 2013

DRSapp said:
STw - for your notes:

Research Octane Number (RON)
Motor Octane Number (MON)

EU and UK use straight RON for their ratings.
US and the Amreicas use (RON+MON)/2

For standard "pump" gas, MON (on average) is 10% lower than RON.

98 RON = (98 -10% + 98)/2 = 93 US Octane

Gotcha dude... its still a required parameter though.

ttkarp · Apr 28, 2013

Trauma said:
2 more items: AR will guarantee results (not specific here what results) only if AR does the install, and Rich will no longer post here as it may interfere with litigation mentioned above.

I would add one more: Thus far, the claimed vast performance superiority of the AR system over Termi systems only appears to be valid in the AR shop on the AR dyno

ttkarp · Apr 28, 2013

DRSapp said:
STw - for your notes:

Research Octane Number (RON)
Motor Octane Number (MON)

EU and UK use straight RON for their ratings.
US and the Amreicas use (RON+MON)/2

For standard "pump" gas, MON (on average) is 10% lower than RON.

98 RON = (98 -10% + 98)/2 = 93 US Octane

All this talk of MORON's has me wondering what Frosty's up to. I kid, I kid.

Stw · Apr 28, 2013

ttkarp said:
I would add one more: Thus far, the claimed vast performance superiority of the AR system over Termi systems only appears to be valid in the AR shop on the AR dyno

I think you and Trauma will be added to AR's suit very soon...

Trauma · Apr 28, 2013

DRSapp said:
STw - for your notes:

Research Octane Number (RON)
Motor Octane Number (MON)

EU and UK use straight RON for their ratings.
US and the Amreicas use (RON+MON)/2

For standard "pump" gas, MON (on average) is 10% lower than RON.

98 RON = (98 -10% + 98)/2 = 93 US Octane

Aaah, that's what the Amreicas use, what about the Americas?

ttkarp · Apr 28, 2013

Stw said:
I think you and Trauma will be added to AR's suit very soon...

My team of lawyers is on standby

Seriously though, I don't want to scroll back through and I can't remember, is there another example yet of anyone else finding a big performance difference one way or the other?

Trauma · Apr 28, 2013

I think the big hole, is an example of anyone testing the same bike on Termi slip/full against AR. Both versions being tuned to the max on a dyno.

Stw · Apr 28, 2013

ttkarp said:
My team of lawyers is on standby Seriously though, I don't want to scroll back through and I can't remember, is there another example yet of anyone else finding a big performance difference one way or the other?

Well 'Big" is a very malleable word here... Not sure anyone has gotten huge gains using any particular set up.. I think personally going 15/41 sprocket arrangement would give the appearance of a great boost in performance.. I am going that route... otherwise I think it comes down to that oft used expression Tuning.. but as we all know that's a huge can of worms anyway.

..Bike has plenty of power... with slips sounds really nice... I'm not sure there's much more power available without spending $000's on engine mods..
The true answer is buy a S1000 if you want a real gain in power... its ugly.. but a great bike...otherwise just enjoy what you have and realise its a beautiful bike and will always get the looks at Starbux..lol

ttkarp · Apr 28, 2013

Stw said:
Well 'Big" is a very malleable word here... Not sure anyone has gotten huge gains using any particular set up.. I think personally going 15/41 sprocket arrangement would give the appearance of a great boost in performance.. I am going that route... otherwise I think it comes down to that oft used expression Tuning.. but as we all know that's a huge can of worms anyway...Bike has plenty of power... with slips sounds really nice... I'm not sure there's much more power available without spending $000's on engine mods..
The true answer is buy a S1000 if you want a real gain in power... its ugly.. but a great bike...otherwise just enjoy what you have and realise its a beautiful bike and will always get the looks at Starbux..lol

Having the termi slips, dp rearsets, and 41T installed this week. I'm still running the original ecu map too. All told, should liven it up quite a bit I would think. I agree on the S1000R, especially that it's ugly!

Stw · Apr 28, 2013

ttkarp said:
Having the termi slips, dp rearsets, and 41T installed this week. I'm still running the original ecu map too. All told, should liven it up quite a bit I would think. I agree on the S1000R, especially that it's ugly!

Cool... Fascinated to get your feedback on the sprocket change..Slips don't do much of anything for power ..but they look great and sound really good... its not that their louder but the bike seems to hit a sweeter note.. IMHO..

d1098man · Apr 28, 2013

I think this thread is so drawn out mainly because alot of people had interest in this system initially....n consistent ducati owners were looking for a good alternative other than termi's n akra....i also think alot of people are still hoping for it to live up to its big claims thats why the thread is still going

ttkarp · Apr 28, 2013

d1098man said:
I think this thread is so drawn out mainly because alot of people had interest in this system initially....n consistent ducati owners were looking for a good alternative other than termi's n akra....i also think alot of people are still hoping for it to live up to its big claims thats why the thread is still going

Even if it doesn't prove to offer much advantage in performance over any other tuned system, it still offers a unique choice in terms of appearance and sound. The good thing about this painful thread is that potential buyers now have a more realistic expectation of what they're getting before placing the order.

Notec · Apr 28, 2013

Stw said:
Cliff notes version of this thread....

Ar's claims for the benefits of their pipe appear dubious at best..
Pipe looks great
Pipe sounds great
Pipe is made of Inconel
Despite claims to the contrary a heat shield is a must
Pipe does'nt produce anywhere close to the numbers previously touted by AR
Air must be blown into your bike at 150mph
98 Ron fuel must be used.
Gavin and I are being sued for questioning the veracity of said claims
Melted fairing have occured on both bikes fitted with AR pipe
RapidBike Module supplied with AR map appears .. well not sure ..shall we say unusable??
There maybe more magical potions/remedies I have omitted here??

Oh..Almost forget... Ozzie tuners and their dynos are crap...

Some of this is misleading.
AR stated that in order to reproduce their results, the Panigale must be tuned with a fan in front to direct track like wind speeds (150mph+) at the air intakes. This was also confirmed by another tuner/race shop operator.

This bit of information was not really mentioned before this thread. I have a problem with this because many owners will very rarely track this motorcycle. And considering the massive loss in midrange power and torque (compared to Termi slipons) without the fan, does this translate to a reduction in street and offtrack performance?

Also, WAf stated his fairing was melted before installing the AR exhaust. So technically, it only melted The Woot's fairing.
Was that installer error or was it really due to the exhaust. I will openly say that some Ducati techs are idiots and nothing more than mechanics. The 2 dealerships within 60 miles of me have absolutely worthless techs and I would not trust them to install any aftermarket component.

Other than that, everything is spot on.

AR Inconel Install

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