AR Inconel Install

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I'm basically giving you bullets. But okay here goes.

I haven't been reading but here's what I got going on. I haven't gotten mine tuned yet either so here we go. Went to go pick up the bike today as I dropped it off last weekend. Had the inconel exhaust and RB Evo installed (with latest map) and both baffles. First fire up without latest upmap installed and it was running rich throughout low-midrange RPM. Installed latest Ducati ECU upmap and it was still rich. So ok I was like wtf. So reverted to and older AR RB map but still rich again. Ok I'm like f it lets take the RB Evo out. Then it ran way better but a bit rich between 4500-6000RPM. Took a baffle out and it made it even better. So not so rich. I however now decided to go the route with getting the ecu tuned versus using an RB module. This thing has gotten a lot of juice through the low-mid RPMs now though and it sounds so awesome! I don't live near any great tuners so we'll see when I can do that. Ended up toasting my right lower oem fairing on my 2 1/2 boring highway ride home right where the bump is at behind the rear brake lever is. Ended up dremel cutting a chunk out and probably a little more as it was not the plastic I could move but the fitment of the pipe. I won't have time to fine tune it till later but it looks ok....kinda like a ..... shaped now though LOL.

Realistically, I'm happy with the AR Exhaust...just that. RB EVO thumbs down. I figured I'd buy both as a complete package and not have to mess with anything. I'm not looking for big numbers just good performance all around. So lesson learned there. So I'm going to look at getting the ECU tuned instead. Just don't know where to go. I'm in Eastern Iowa so surrounding states is not out of the question but seriously I wanted to avoid that but to be expected when things don't work. My dealer/tech was super awesome today and I worked with him to tear out the RB unit and put some extra tape around the engine to not heat up the oil so much. He didn't charge me anything and I was there from 10:30AM to 3PM. My dealer is the only one in the state but he's a super guy and wouldn't buy anywhere else. Too bad he doesn't dyno hehehe.

I'm tired from riding home and going to get some martini's and then head out for a long ride tomorrow. Oh and for damn sure this thing needs a heat shield when the engine is just idling after a riding and it's heated up. But it definitely does cool down super fast when you cutoff the engine.

Firstly I don't need bullets..that infers I want to attack and I truly don't... I just want to see AR 's claimed substantiated (or not)..
So you went from a stock system to AR?? Did you do a dyno run prior to swapping pipes?? Did you see the dyno run details of both?? You say bike was running rich .. how did that affect performance?? Odd that AR tuned RB Module wasn't bang on... I thought that was the point???

Re reading I think I see your dealer didn't dyno this bike?? So how did you know its running rich?? I am a little confused... But I am old and its not difficult to do that these days..
 
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Firstly I don't need bullets..that infers I want to attack and I truly don't... I just want to see AR 's claimed substantiated (or not)..
So you went from a stock system to AR?? Did you do a dyno run prior to swapping pipes?? Did you see the dyno run details of both?? You say bike was running rich .. how did that affect performance?? Odd that AR tuned RB Module wasn't bang on... I thought that was the point???

Re reading I think I see your dealer didn't dyno this bike?? So how did you know its running rich?? I am a little confused... But I am old and its not difficult to do that these days..

No, I did not get it dyno'd before hand. The A/F ratio was dumping a lot of fuel and you could just see smell it and it was really rough to the point it could just die when getting on the gas.

The map I got from AR was for an unmapped ducati ecu but it still ran rich for me. I'm assuming due to different fuel from each others' country. I dunno.

Yes, I totally agree with you on the AR tuned RB and that's why I went with the package but like I said lesson learned. I thought maybe it would be ok out of the box. I actually went as far as to call rapidbikeusa.com and talk to a couple guys and they stated "RB Evo is worthless and you should return it" and "it's made in China." Yeahhhhh...... they also suggested straight ECU tuning versus using any type of module. I dunno if that was just to get a sell to send them my ECU but I think I'm going that route regardless. This was my first time with a full exhaust and fuel module. The exhaust I love but the RB turned out to just suck without getting re-tuned to my environment (if thats the case). Obviously there are other factors involved for tuning locally here but it sucks either way as I figured I wouldn't have to worry about it.

After thinking about I am kinda bummed I had to tear up my lower oem fairing so it wouldn't melt and catch on fire but it is what it is and I hope things resolve.
 
:confused:

I wish someone would post a final word and results...

There are a results in this thread. Is there a final one? Not gonna be. I believe no matter what, everyone's engines are different. Case in point I remember looking at Nissan GTRs when they first camw out which had all their engines hand put together and they all produced different HP figures. Some lower and some higher. We're never gonna get something for sure. Maybe close I guess. Too many different factors in there unfortunately.

The only thing I can assume is I maybe try the Tuneboy map based off the Aussie maps as they may have same humidity as I do here.

I do wanna tune and clean up my ecu/exhaust though. First time for everything. Gonna call a couple places Monday. If and when I do I will let you know.
 
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Sorry, I thought everyone knew I am the person writing the TuneBoy software to reflash the ECU directly.

I tuned one 1199 with the AR exhaust on our Dyno in Sydney last Sunday. This one had the RB module. We removed that and tuned the ECU directly with the TuneBoy software.

As WAF said, I jumped on a flight to Perth (5 and a half hours) and met up with Justin from Pro-Twin, and Todd from Bunbury Ducati. Justin worked for VeeTwo in WA for 15 years making custom parts for Ducati's and building race motors (he knows his ....). Todd does the tuning down in Bunbury and also knows his way around a dyno and Ducati's.

Justin and Todd did the tuning while I gave pointers on using the TuneBoy software. We started with the map I made in Sydney and adjusted to this bike.

Once WAF's bike was done we rolled it off the dyno and put another 1199 on the dyno. This next one had the 70mm full Termi system - not the long header SuperStock system - just the normal full termi system. This was the bike that WAF referred to as the "New bike with 400km" in his first posts.

So the bikes I am comparing are WAF's with the AR system, and a second 1199 with a full Termi exhaust.

I then got on a flight back to Sydney via Melbourne; eight hours later I was back in Sydney at midnight.

I will be tuning another 1199 on my Dyno with the Termi slip-on system.
Once I do that I will be happy to post the graph of the AR and Termi Slip-on.
After WAF's bike was tuned, another mechanic from Pro-Twin took the bike for a test ride. He was very impressed with the way the bike felt to ride.

I think the trip to Perth was worthwhile as it gave me some feedback from the dyno operator's.

The photo's of the dyno room at Pro-Twin are a little misleading - yes the two little DynoJet fans don't look like they are up to the task. What you cannot see in the pictures is the big extraction fan in the roof. With this fan running the air coming into the room towards the bike has some force behind it. This allows the DynoJet fans to be pointed at the ram air inlets to make sure the airbox has cool air coming in.

I am trying to stay neutral on this thread.
 
The AR made 175 with two baffles.
The termi full system on the same day same dyno made around 172 or 173.
The AR made more than the full termi in the upper part of the rev range and the full Termi made a little more at the very bottom of the range.

Baffles do make a difference to the A/F ratio.
Anything that changes the exhaust gas speed and or pressure will change the pulse timing in the exhaust system.
Every bike I have tested with and without baffles shows a richer mixture with the baffles in.

Thanks, some here don't know as much at they think.
 
WAF does not have a full Termi system just slip ons!

Was this another bike that your quoting figures from wmcdonal?

You learn something new every day, I never would have thought that the exhaust could change the air fuel mix. I thought the exhaust effected just how well it expelled spent gases so that it could take a fresh mix in more efficiently not the mixture ratio.

Where do you work wmcdonal?

You may want to check out a good book on two strokes. Exhaust pulses can affect exhaust scavenging as well as intake charge. A lot of modern cars use this effect on both intake and exhaust to improve volumetric efficiency.
 
You may want to check out a good book on two strokes. Exhaust pulses can affect exhaust scavenging as well as intake charge. A lot of modern cars use this effect on both intake and exhaust to improve volumetric efficiency.

"Volumetric efficiency" Now there is a term I have not heard in a long time. Last time I read those words were when I was studying for my commercial pilots exam and studying power plants. Have to dig out my textbooks and read some basic engine theory again.

Sorry got a bit sidetracked. You know I have been reading this thread a lot and at the end of the day it would not matter which exhaust I had on my S it would not have made todays ride any better.

I have a std sys by the way and always use earplugs to protect my hearing and not get tinnitus in my other ear. So don,t need any pipe is louder unless maybe if I was racing.:D
 
sifubs your just looking to argue for arguments sake. In the quote you used I start by saying you learn something new every day.

I have only ever had genuine questions which have been very hard to get answers for. Individuals like you who have taken the personal approach just don't seem to get it!

If I have a view and choose to express it I do so without any malicious intent. When someone then explains that I am wrong and I can see their point I am more than willing to accept it. Thats life and a healthy forum community.

Take a chill pill. Better still if you have something constructive to add or ask that would be even better!
 
This thread has gone 650 post too long . Was it about the heat again ? Just chuck on a 41 tooth rear everything will be sweet .
 
Well I've spent the day on the track while things here seem to have continued in the same vein ;)

Wayne you and the guys have done a top job!
 
OK, time to finally post on this thread:

First off, I have the Termi full system and I'm not a fan of AR's system, though I appreciate Rich for developing it and bringing it to market. Competition is the only thing keeping Termi and Akrapovic in check. Lets face it, if Termi was the only system available, a lot of us would pay an extra $k or two just to have it.

Rich's main fault in this is publishing his comparison numbers, both in peak power and noise. As we said nearly a year ago, that's just bad form. Publish your own graphs showing your curves, AFR and an expected average gains. By not doing so, Rich as left himself open for this discontent.

Any turner worth their salt will admit that Peak Power result from a given dyno are worthless if compared to other Peak Power result from another given dyno. You will find that results from different Dynos and taken under different conditions even on the same dyno will differ. Even though CF attempts to correct for temperature and pressure, the environment will vary your results by +/- ~2% or more.

As well as factors in the DYNO machine and environment, the selected Correction Factor (CF) can play a part in the numbers game -

DIN uses 1013mBar and 20 degrees Celsius as the nominal conditions, whereas the SAE uses 990mBar and 25 degrees Celsius as the nominal conditions. DIN also uses absolute air pressure SAE uses dry. Difference being that dry doesn't account for relative humidity.

The formula for CF is too difficult to type in the text area, but the important thing to remember is that CF DIN is usually ~1.16% higher than SAE.

In short, unless every run is under the exact same conditions, the peak numbers mean little. The only true thing to take from a dyno run is the shape of the torque and power curves and the Air/Fuel Ratio.

Gavin D - Subtraction of back pressure without remapping will decrease the fuel to air mixture ratio (Lean out). Running lean will give you more top end power and higher engine running temperature. In tuning term, lean is mean, but you don't want to go too lean least bad things will happen. But that will never be the case for the Termi slip-on our race exhaust mapping.. they'll always be on the safe side. (usually richer than the Stock map)

Addition of Back Pressure without remapping will increase the fuel to air mixture ratio (richen). In moderation, this can add more torque and response down but less top end power. The engine will also run slightly "cooler" due to unburnt fuel. Going too rich will bog down the engine and make it feel sluggish.

Most manufactures tune a little lean to help pass emissions - Lean = a cleaner burn and less work for the catalytic converter.

Picture this if you will - you have a Stock system which is trying to meet noise regulations so is creating back pressure which will in turn richen the fuel mixture. Now Ducati has to back off the fuel to lean out the mixture to to meet EPA and EU3 emission standards. Now you take away the Stock system back pressure by installing an open system ie Termi Slips or full system, the Up Map will have to enrich the mixture.

From the results thus far, I would speculate the RB unit is setup for the Stock map and not the Termi slip/full system upmap. This would cause the extra rich running with the addition of the RB unit and the AR system.
 
sifubs your just looking to argue for arguments sake. In the quote you used I start by saying you learn something new every day.

I have only ever had genuine questions which have been very hard to get answers for. Individuals like you who have taken the personal approach just don't seem to get it!

If I have a view and choose to express it I do so without any malicious intent. When someone then explains that I am wrong and I can see their point I am more than willing to accept it. Thats life and a healthy forum community.

Take a chill pill. Better still if you have something constructive to add or ask that would be even better!

Not trying to argue , just pointing you in a direction to get some facts and understanding of how an engine works unless you're satisfied with relying on someone's say so. Lets not forget a few posts ago you responded incorrectly and at the same time ridiculed my pertinent and valid question to wmcdonal.
 
There are a results in this thread. Is there a final one? Not gonna be. I believe no matter what, everyone's engines are different. Case in point I remember looking at Nissan GTRs when they first camw out which had all their engines hand put together and they all produced different HP figures. Some lower and some higher. We're never gonna get something for sure. Maybe close I guess. Too many different factors in there unfortunately.

The only thing I can assume is I maybe try the Tuneboy map based off the Aussie maps as they may have same humidity as I do here.

I do wanna tune and clean up my ecu/exhaust though. First time for everything. Gonna call a couple places Monday. If and when I do I will let you know.

Hey Woot...

Ok just so I am clear on this ...You bought the AR system and the RB Evo loaded with the AR specific tune... and the bike ran like crap and melted your fairing?? This cost around $4200 and you got 5.5 hrs of work done at your dealer (retail value approx $550) for free and yet you still have a bike that doesn't run well and you are now going to have to buy the TB Ecu tuner to try to get this all sorted?? (cost approx $600)
Do I have this right???
 
Hey Woot...

Ok just so I am clear on this ...You bought the AR system and the RB Evo loaded with the AR specific tune... and the bike ran like crap and melted your fairing?? This cost around $4200 and you got 5.5 hrs of work done at your dealer (retail value approx $550) for free and yet you still have a bike that doesn't run well and you are now going to have to buy the TB Ecu tuner to try to get this all sorted?? (cost approx $600)
Do I have this right???

Is it just me, or are most of AR's claims in question? Too bad Rich is gone because now we could use some "clarification" on the RB claims
 
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Hey Woot...

Ok just so I am clear on this ...You bought the AR system and the RB Evo loaded with the AR specific tune... and the bike ran like crap and melted your fairing?? This cost around $4200 and you got 5.5 hrs of work done at your dealer (retail value approx $550) for free and yet you still have a bike that doesn't run well and you are now going to have to buy the TB Ecu tuner to try to get this all sorted?? (cost approx $600)
Do I have this right???

Yep.....RB Evo going up on fleabay or clist very soon so I hope to get some coin back for it. It's basically brand new. Crappy part is that I paid more for it when I ordered than its worth now.
 
Yep.....RB Evo going up on fleabay or clist very soon so I hope to get some coin back for it. It's basically brand new. Crappy part is that I paid more for it when I ordered than its worth now.

Ouch.... Well what can I say.... AR appears to be 0-2 on here.... what could possibly be wrong here?? :rolleyes:
 
Yep.....RB Evo going up on fleabay or clist very soon so I hope to get some coin back for it. It's basically brand new. Crappy part is that I paid more for it when I ordered than its worth now.

AR has a new money back policy posted yesterday. You don't live in the UK, but its worth a try?
 
Honestly, the exhaust worked great out of the box minus the RB Evo unit. I can't really fault him for the RB unit. For all I know it could be bad. Was informed that Evo's would have issues with not running it's settings properly. But I think the nicer route is with getting an ECU tune. I came in with an open mind that I would more than likely need a tune. Not trying to sugar coat my situation though.
 

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