AR Inconel Install

nyandy said:

i'll say this; I've dealt w/ Rich a bunch over the past few months. Yes, he has a product that he wants sold, but I don't get a BS vibe by him in the least.

As an owner of a system on an early production, problem laden turd of an 1199 I can't say I've been able to give a full review of the system or get it tuned due to the fact... well, mine doesn't run....

I really dig on how WA has put the system under the microscope and I'll do my best to do the same.

However, let's give Rich a chance to chime in here and offer up his perspective on the system he and AR designed.

I'm not someone who gives credit w/out their being some solidity behind it. I hope the numbers line up in the end and I think they will.

BTW WA: I think it's going to end up needing the shield too.

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Agreed. I've taken the questions to Rich 'offline' formthat reason and I've tried to keep things factual based on data from AR and from our dyno runs today, not least because I know there are several members who are considering the AR system and I'm not about to start defending the product just because I've bought it - sound familiar

Castor Troy said:

Keep in mind that they are not on the same side of the globe as you---different altitude, air density, shop temp, happy dyno and etc. I would rather settle for a clean, i mean super ....... clean fueling with no bog down spots in the powerband and call it a day. Numbers are nice and all but they don't mean jack if the fueling is off, plus when are you gonna use all 190plus whp?. WA that is my 2 pennies.

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I agree.


OP-Thank you for sharing.

WAfatboy said:

Will be about $4,600 all up.

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Are you getting free dyno time???

WAfatboy said:

I've asked Rich to see if there are any settings we might have missed. Ultimately I'm sure they'd want to help. Lets see how we go, I might take it down to these guys who have a brilliant rep, for a second opinion and comparison run, they're just a long way away
Ducati Bunbury: Wayne Patterson's Motorcycle Centre

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This was Rich's initial response, straight up:

Hi
Good stuff
I see your forum thread. I will post up later once home.
Ok your figures are low. Our charts are honest results from a few different bikes.
1/You must un plug the rear wheel speed sensor.
2/ blow 140mph + wind speed into front of bike.
3/ turn off tc, eb and abs.
4/ run in track mode.
5/ 96- 98 octane gas.
6/ run the bike for around 2 hours nice and warmed up while mapping then do power runs around 5 straight off.
We see consistent gains of around 5-8bhp from our system over any other system like for like.
Yes mapping will give you the gains you seem to be missing. You should see high 180's.

Let me know how you get on

I am happy for you to post up this info.

Rich

WAfatboy said:

This was Rich's initial response, straight up:

Hi
Good stuff
I see your forum thread. I will post up later once home.
Ok your figures are low. Our charts are honest results from a few different bikes.
1/You must un plug the rear wheel speed sensor.
2/ blow 140mph + wind speed into front of bike.
3/ turn off tc, eb and abs.
4/ run in track mode.
5/ 96- 98 octane gas.
6/ run the bike for around 2 hours nice and warmed up while mapping then do power runs around 5 straight off.
We see consistent gains of around 5-8bhp from our system over any other system like for like.
Yes mapping will give you the gains you seem to be missing. You should see high 180's.

Let me know how you get on

I am happy for you to post up this info.

Rich

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Hmmm... not sure about all that... didnt see mention of this when they were bashing the Termis....

WAf if the HEAT is same as before, then that really blows! I assumed that special incontel that AR advertises would truly reduce heat -- if there is not a material change in heat that would really be a shame. But hey, it looks great and is allegedly much lighter, right? It is lighter than the termi??????

WAfatboy said:

This was Rich's initial response, straight up:

Hi
Good stuff
I see your forum thread. I will post up later once home.
Ok your figures are low. Our charts are honest results from a few different bikes.
1/You must un plug the rear wheel speed sensor.
2/ blow 140mph + wind speed into front of bike.
3/ turn off tc, eb and abs.
4/ run in track mode.
5/ 96- 98 octane gas.
6/ run the bike for around 2 hours nice and warmed up while mapping then do power runs around 5 straight off.
We see consistent gains of around 5-8bhp from our system over any other system like for like.
Yes mapping will give you the gains you seem to be missing. You should see high 180's.

Let me know how you get on

I am happy for you to post up this info.

Rich

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NB..

This also makes the comparo with the Termi slips invalid.. as you were probably not doing any of those things with the Termi either... So arguably any gains you see using those new parameters could be applied to the slips???

Very interested in seeing how this all finally works out. Dynos are different the world over, but there should have been a bigger delta between before and after on the same dyno. I also did not know you had to run 96+ octane to run AR.

Looks and sounds great.

Eveything we test is always like for like same day same air blowing onto the bike. We try to reproduce the track conditions as best we can. The bike is making peak power at 150mph + so you must re produce the same conditions on your dyno. We appreciate not all dyno operators agree with this but we absolutely find it is required.
The fuel, weather conditions, tyre pressure and condition, chain slack, and particularly dyno operator all have a massive affect on dyno end figures.

The post on the things you must do to correctly dyno a pani simply must be followed. The pani is a strange bike on the dyno and you can see 160-180bhp in the same batch of runs!

I noticed your dyno operator doing 1 or 2 runs at a go. You need to start the run from way low down at 3000rpm right into the red and do 5-6 straight off to get accurate results.

I can confidently say that we would see high 180's from that bike as we have done from many other pani's mapped on our dyno.

Contrary to what some may think, we DO NOT gloss up the figures, what would the point be! We give you factual info and will always put our money where our mouths are.

Any info i can help with i gladly will.

Stw said:

Hmmm... not sure about all that... didnt see mention of this when they were bashing the Termis....

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I did the same steps above. Its pretty much standard dyno setup for the Pani. I didnt do steps 5 and 6. I got 185.90 Hp with my full Termi System.

96-98 Oct. I had used 91 Oct.
Didnt run 2 hours. I just ran it until the bike got hot

Dyno Results - Ducati 1199

Rich is correct all the things he pointed out could affect your Dyno run. The Pani is a strange bike to dyno. The wind speed is crucial for the airspeed sensor.

ScrapperX said:

I did the same steps above. Its pretty much standard dyno setup for the Pani. I didnt do steps 5 and 6. I got 185.90 Hp with my full Termi System.

96-98 Oct. I had used 91 Oct.
Didnt run 2 hours. I just ran it until the bike got hot

Dyno Results - Ducati 1199

Rich is correct all the things he pointed out could affect your Dyno run. The Pani is a strange bike to dyno. The wind speed is crucial for the airspeed sensor.

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Our 91/93 octane is close to their 96/98 octane ratings.

My issues stem from AR's initial stand point on this whole thing.... I seem to remember them bashing the Termis..well that's fine and dandy..but given these results perhaps they look a little premature??? Great looking product and no doubting the quality...but the numbers don't look great...so far... and 96 Octane gas?? Wtf???

Stw said:

My issues stem from AR's initial stand point on this whole thing.... I seem to remember them bashing the Termis..well that's fine and dandy..but given these results perhaps they look a little premature??? Great looking product and no doubting the quality...but the numbers don't look great...so far... and 96 Octane gas?? Wtf???

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Yea, that octane thing is new - not obtainable for most folks (me included).

I don't think anyone's been bashing the Termi's..Just differing opinions etc.

As other variables come into play no two dyno's will read the same.

Air temp, humidity, warm up times, altitude, ram air effect etc, etc.

One thing I will say personally, having used a Tuneboy in the past, I certainly would never go down that route again.

A previous post stated just what a pain the Pani is to set up. I agree with that as I had a long conversation with Dynojet in the UK and they've basically given up on a PC unit for said Pain..! (Genuine spelling error.!)

Hope it all works out for you WA.

I'm sure AR will do their best to help..


.

Stw said:

NB..

This also makes the comparo with the Termi slips invalid.. as you were probably not doing any of those things with the Termi either... So arguably any gains you see using those new parameters could be applied to the slips???

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Actually you're wrong. I have Termi slip ons & Austin Racing did all those things when setting up the Rapidbike Racing module for me last week. I've only read the last page of this thread but there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation and conjecture. The fact is the AR system is way lighter than the Termi one. I have no doubt that it produces more power too given the number of bikes it's been fitted to and the results I've seen. I imagine the reason you aren't seeing the gains you wanted is that it hasn't been setup yet. I'd have gone this route if noise wasn't an issue where I live.

SPJ said:

Actually you're wrong. I have Termi slip ons & Austin Racing did all those things when setting up the Rapidbike Racing module for me last week. I've only read the last page of this thread but there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation and conjecture. The fact is the AR system is way lighter than the Termi one. I have no doubt that it produces more power too given the number of bikes it's been fitted to and the results I've seen. I imagine the reason you aren't seeing the gains you wanted is that it hasn't been setup yet. I'd have gone this route if noise wasn't an issue where I live.

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My point was that Waf... did a test pull on his dyno and got 172 with Termi slips.... as far as I know he wasnt using 140mph blowers, 96-98 octane gas etc... so now if he uses those things and does a run with his AR system is that comparo valid??? I think not....

Regarding the higher octane rating, read the Wiki article on octane rating. The octane shown at the pump doesn't always mean the same thing between different countries.

Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be interesting to see a like for like comparison after tuning i.e tuning with Tuneboy software for slips, full Termi and the AR system.

The low numbers seen could be the result of different environment, dyno procedures as mentioned previously as well as the bike itself (breakin procedures etc).

Sorry if i missed it but is there a Dyno result of the AR system without the rapid bike tuning compared to the Termi slips and full Termi with the new Ducati maps that were provided recently?

I am definitely not a fan of piggyback modules and so am interested in Tuneboy if it gets good results, it would be interesting to see the results and would help many of us to make a decision.

I think the issue is he did his first compare back-to-back. So if the AR has to have all these parameters met to show a gain, then as Stw said, all those parmaters must also be applied to the Termi to be apples-to-apples. Problem there, he will not do a switch of pipes, as not an easy thing.

Stw said:

My point was that Waf... did a test pull on his dyno and got 172 with Termi slips.... as far as I know he wasnt using 140mph blowers, 96-98 octane gas etc... so now if he uses those things and does a run with his AR system is that comparo valid??? I think not....

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And your point is still invalid. Fuel over here is pretty much all at that octane rating. It's standard to use the blowers when setting up on the dyno. Did he remember to turn the DTC off? Well he have had a f***ing hard time setting it up with it on!!! Sorry but some of the assumptions above are just wrong.