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Im not trying to defend AR, i love my Termi's but theoretically the AR should produce a little more than than any system that has mufflers on them. Of course things come into play such as length, bends and diameter. The AR is basically a header system or straight through system that doesn't lose power from the mufflers because there is none. Exhaust system only increases a certain percentage of what the engine is putting out so it will varies from bike to bike. The headers are what gives you the increase in power not the mufflers/slip-on's. The reason the slip on's gives you more power than the stock is because the CATs are removed so the headers can flow more. I particularly didn't like the way AR compared Termi Slip on's vs their full system. I believe it wasn't a fair comparison it should have been a full Termi vs the AR full system both with larger diameter header system assuming the AR has a lager diameter than the stock Pani header 50MM diameter. They claimed that the Best way to compare it was with the slip on because it produced more power than the Full. I say that was B.S. It would have been a more interesting comparison due to the fact both are around the same price point. They should have baseline it head to head Termi evo race map versus the rapid bike module on the AR system and then the RB module on the Termi vs RB module on the AR system.
When you dyno a bike you fuel it for the system on the bike. We did a full test and fuelled for termi slips, termi full system and AR system on the same bike on the same day (a very long day). The results gave a starting point to progress the AR system at the early stages. We then did it it all over again on our finished system to get to the results you see posted on our site.
A few years back we did a very interesting test on 2 identical new stock bikes. Bike 1, we ran in on the dyno so basically 300 miles going against the manual letting it rev higher and higher as the miles climbed. From 300 miles it was power run for around 2 hours.
Bike 2, run in on the road as the manual and then power run for around 20 minutes.
End result was the dyno run in bike 1 was way looser up at the top end of the rev range and produced 5bhp more peak power than bike 2. (bike 1, 15000 miles on still going strong).
My point being that if a customers bike is tight and pushing out low numbers if you spend the time with it at the top end you will see higher numbers. That is why there is such a massive variant bike to bike.
You can not simply strap it down and do a few runs expecting to see the same results as your mates bike that was on a dyno a week before at a different centre, it just does not work like that!
The AR system i guarantee you will out perform like for like if it is fuelled correctly and the dyno tech does a good fair comparative test.
Heat shield info: the full termi heat shield fits with our system should you have 1 or want to add 1.
ScapperX: that is exactly what we did!!!
Pics of the Inconel from the dyno today:
A few years back we did a very interesting test on 2 identical new stock bikes. Bike 1, we ran in on the dyno so basically 300 miles going against the manual letting it rev higher and higher as the miles climbed. From 300 miles it was power run for around 2 hours.
Bike 2, run in on the road as the manual and then power run for around 20 minutes.
End result was the dyno run in bike 1 was way looser up at the top end of the rev range and produced 5bhp more peak power than bike 2. (bike 1, 15000 miles on still going strong).
My point being that if a customers bike is tight and pushing out low numbers if you spend the time with it at the top end you will see higher numbers. That is why there is such a massive variant bike to bike.
You can not simply strap it down and do a few runs expecting to see the same results as your mates bike that was on a dyno a week before at a different centre, it just does not work like that!
The AR system i guarantee you will out perform like for like if it is fuelled correctly and the dyno tech does a good fair comparative test.
Heat shield info: the full termi heat shield fits with our system should you have 1 or want to add 1.
ScapperX: that is exactly what we did!!!
Pics of the Inconel from the dyno today:
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+1 - what we need, but we can't expect Rich to do apples-apples for all exhausts. And this may never happen irl because few if any blokes will back-to-back test full Termis to the AR. I think you have to buy the AR for looks/sound/weight, with an expectation that just by design (straight pipe) it should perform at least a little better than the the full Termi.
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Agree I still love that AR system. It's a thing of beauty!
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SPJ I am not looking to argue for the sake of it but you are so wrong it's not funny.
Read the thread from the start. WAF...... clearly states the steps taken. The dyno techs at his shop know what they are doing. RON is a world standard and while brands may offer different fuel ratings in different countries 98 RON in UK is the same as 98 RON in USA, AUS, CAN, JAP etc etc.
The blowers are a must but in any Dyno room they are for the radiators and are not for the ram air effect. No Dyno room this side of a factory mega expensive set up can produce 150 mile per hour winds to be forced into the air intake. At best they would be 80 mile per hour and thats being generous to the average Dyno room!!
STW was right this is not apples for apples and has not been from the start.
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Is it fair to say apples to apples, but inflated compared to what most dynos will show because of the ram air effect?
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When you dyno a bike you fuel it for the system on the bike. We did a full test and fuelled for termi slips, termi full system and AR system on the same bike on the same day (a very long day). The results gave a starting point to progress the AR system at the early stages. We then did it it all over again on our finished system to get to the results you see posted on our site.
A few years back we did a very interesting test on 2 identical new stock bikes. Bike 1, we ran in on the dyno so basically 300 miles going against the manual letting it rev higher and higher as the miles climbed. From 300 miles it was power run for around 2 hours.
Bike 2, run in on the road as the manual and then power run for around 20 minutes.
End result was the dyno run in bike 1 was way looser up at the top end of the rev range and produced 5bhp more peak power than bike 2. (bike 1, 15000 miles on still going strong).
My point being that if a customers bike is tight and pushing out low numbers if you spend the time with it at the top end you will see higher numbers. That is why there is such a massive variant bike to bike.
You can not simply strap it down and do a few runs expecting to see the same results as your mates bike that was on a dyno a week before at a different centre, it just does not work like that!
The AR system i guarantee you will out perform like for like if it is fuelled correctly and the dyno tech does a good fair comparative test.
Heat shield info: the full termi heat shield fits with our system should you have 1 or want to add 1.
ScapperX: that is exactly what we did!!!
Pics of the Inconel from the dyno today:
No disrespect Rich I must have misunderstood your post/charts a while back, but I've dynoed five Pani's two with slips and three with full and one of the full was my own dynoed it stock also and the Full Termi has always produced more than the stock and slips by a significant margin. I thought you posted something a while back stating that the slips produce more power than the Full system.
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Rich
With respect I have not seen you re map the DP full system to see what could be achieved with better mapping.
As WAF.... has done rip one off (not a full sys) and place another on being your full system which if I remember correctly has the same diameter pipe as standard, one would expect a performance increase not decrease! prior to mapping with even better results after mapping.
Length of pipe radius of bends and diameter all effect power greatly, please explain in your opinion what it is about your pipe that produces more power.
Please let me know what you are using for ram air that produces genuine 150 mile per hour induction force? After all you are challenging Ducati factory claims re the power output of the full DP system including the induction effect.
With respect I have not seen you re map the DP full system to see what could be achieved with better mapping.
As WAF.... has done rip one off (not a full sys) and place another on being your full system which if I remember correctly has the same diameter pipe as standard, one would expect a performance increase not decrease! prior to mapping with even better results after mapping.
Length of pipe radius of bends and diameter all effect power greatly, please explain in your opinion what it is about your pipe that produces more power.
Please let me know what you are using for ram air that produces genuine 150 mile per hour induction force? After all you are challenging Ducati factory claims re the power output of the full DP system including the induction effect.
Every dyno i know of in the UK has more power to the ram air than we have. We have 150mph, crescent suzuki have 200mph and so on.
When you ride the bike has that wind speed blasted into the front so of course it is best to reproduce the affects to get a good accurate high end map.
We still see mid 180's with the fan turned off!
In our tests we see a better range from the termi slip ons than the termi full system, With Up Maps used. That was always the point we made, the up maps are terrible and actually reduced power on the full system.
The full system always created a massive torque hole at the 5-6000rpm region, something the slips did not do.
When mapped with the Termi full system and RB we still found we can not get rid of the hole and peak power was barely up from the slips.
When you ride the bike has that wind speed blasted into the front so of course it is best to reproduce the affects to get a good accurate high end map.
We still see mid 180's with the fan turned off!
In our tests we see a better range from the termi slip ons than the termi full system, With Up Maps used. That was always the point we made, the up maps are terrible and actually reduced power on the full system.
The full system always created a massive torque hole at the 5-6000rpm region, something the slips did not do.
When mapped with the Termi full system and RB we still found we can not get rid of the hole and peak power was barely up from the slips.
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Gavin D
that is what i am saying about how you perform the runs for 1 system and then another, it can have a massive affect if not done fairly and equally.
You need to do run after run on the pani to get accurate figures. If this was done i guarantee you the results would be different.
that is what i am saying about how you perform the runs for 1 system and then another, it can have a massive affect if not done fairly and equally.
You need to do run after run on the pani to get accurate figures. If this was done i guarantee you the results would be different.
Stw
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I am talking about in previous threads... not this one... and I am not the only one who feels this way...
Like I said, we have never bashed another manufacturer, we have only offered up our findings which I think you will find 99% of members are only to pleased to get to see.
I'm not here to go round in circles so can we keep this great thread on track. Please.
I'm not here to go round in circles so can we keep this great thread on track. Please.
Stw
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It is very much on track.....
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I agree that the 5-6K torque hole was there on the old upmap but I did see a 10 hp difference between the full Termi and Termi slip at max hp which is huge for an exhaust system with no engine mods. Well maybe that's not significant difference compared to the 190 ish the AR system is getting
but the latest up map had taken care of that torque hole. At least in a positive direction and not the negative direction we were seeing. By the way if you haven't notice I still love your system. Just a little bit too expensive for me for some tubes. Maybe when you get that NRE back hopefully the price drops some?
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Fun facts and Company claims plus a question!
Ducati claim 195 hp at the crank. Termi claim full system will save 2kg and add approximately 5% power increase.
195 + 5% = 204.75hp at the crank. (9.75hp increase)
The average and universally excepted power loss from crank to rear wheel is approximately 10% due to mechanical and frictional influences. Reduce the loss to have serious gains!
204.75 - 10% = 184.275hp at the rear wheel (20.475hp decrease)
As approximately claimed by Ducati. A company that historically under estimates these figures to avoid ridicule.
YearOne claimed he got 186 with full Termi + rapid bike in a UK dyno. Up from 173 he thinks at first. An additional 5 rear wheel hp up to 191hp was gained he claims by the AR full system.
The pipe of the AR is the same diameter as the standard sys according to previous posts by AR so where is the extra power coming from?
Thats a 9% power gain being claimed by the AR system. Is it from length of the system, diameter or a variation of the radius of the bends?
Ducati claim 195 hp at the crank. Termi claim full system will save 2kg and add approximately 5% power increase.
195 + 5% = 204.75hp at the crank. (9.75hp increase)
The average and universally excepted power loss from crank to rear wheel is approximately 10% due to mechanical and frictional influences. Reduce the loss to have serious gains!
204.75 - 10% = 184.275hp at the rear wheel (20.475hp decrease)
As approximately claimed by Ducati. A company that historically under estimates these figures to avoid ridicule.
YearOne claimed he got 186 with full Termi + rapid bike in a UK dyno. Up from 173 he thinks at first. An additional 5 rear wheel hp up to 191hp was gained he claims by the AR full system.
The pipe of the AR is the same diameter as the standard sys according to previous posts by AR so where is the extra power coming from?
Thats a 9% power gain being claimed by the AR system. Is it from length of the system, diameter or a variation of the radius of the bends?
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