DDA+ and GPS

yeah, it is quite telling, actually. It indicates that they don't care about hobbyist racers.
I decided to try a phone-based solution before investing in an AIM Solo. Got an ODB-Link MX+ plus the Ducati adapter, as previously mentioned. Will test HLT and RaceChrono on my iPhone and see how far I get. But will probably need a good GPS receiver in addtion.
Any recommendations between Qstarz BL-1000 GT, Dual XGPS 160 or others, based on your experience?

AndrewP0823 said:

...I have a carbon tail cover and from what I’m reading that can block the signal...

Click to expand...

Indeed overarching material consistancy and ingredients do matter.
Check this link out since their are 2 more factors at play influencing satellite signal quality besides LOS:
Material that Degrade GPS Signal Reception

doctorb said:

could it be that certain plastic materials (e.g. polycarbonate screen, plastic lid over that front hatch) impair GPS reception? if that were to be the case, all GPS receivers would need to be positioned open to the sky?

Click to expand...

indeed. refer to this table 1st explained in previous link.

In an ideal world indeed.
On a compact moving moto LOS will always be compromised largely by a big blob of water (aka the rider) blocking ~30% of the open sky at any point in time, besides chosen fairing composition.

doctorb said:

Any recommendations between Qstarz BL-1000 GT, Dual XGPS 160 or others, based on your experience?

Click to expand...

Yeah tried the same approach... in vain. ;(
As explained in the OBD thread you asked: HLT didn't work out for me on an iPhone6-128GB being simply too slow to coordinate all incoming data from OBDlinkMX(wifi), 20Hz VBoxSport(bluetooth), GoProH7b and its own sensors (camera, gyro etc.).
Probably on a modern iPhone (10+), this should be possible in a stable manner?

On my previous trackbike some years ago, after a few failed attempts I just didn't bother integrating them all into one movie like Konastab so perfectly managed to create.
This was my ambition though, but this became simply too much of a hassle vs. potential return (i.e. too labor intensive, too much trial & error).

Therefore for post-run analysis, I simply stuck to having these apps open on my Macbook Pro at the same time and manually filter out the improvement areas by also cross-checking them:
- Quicktime for frame by frame unedited GoPro movie playback.
- VBox's CircuitTools for checking out the corresponding VBox track for my (less than) ideal racing-lines;
* In the past OBDlink Canbus data recording didn't work out via HLT. Coming May, during a planned trackday at TT Assen, I will try to use Prosa's DDA Graphic Analyzer with recorded DDA+ data instead;

I admit not nearly as convenient as Konastab his integrated movie, but I learned from cross-checking raw movie with Vbox track nonetheless.

May be I'll give VBox's CircuitTools or Garmin's free VIRB edit (as used for paragliding) another go after that trackday.
Since in both you can import a GoPro movie and sync it to the corresponding track-data.

Would even be better if we could also import OBDlink- a/o Konastab his DDA.csv to this application?!
I would be thrilled.

It obviously is a never-ending story, as I learn from your trials and tribulations
I take it from your post, that you think the VBox GPS is best?

Just had a bad experience tithe the gps lap timer yesterday at chuckwalla. On my 1199 I never had issues here. Reading the issues on this thread I decided to lap at an apex so I was in the same spot on the track every time and it was garbage. I’m going to move it to the nose and see how it goes at the same track on Monday. So annoying.

doctorb said:

I take it from your post, that you think the VBox GPS is best?

Click to expand...

good, better or best?

Well VBox Sport in its current version has been downgraded from 20Hz (GPS only) to 10Hz (GPS+Glonass), like most of the competition (e.g. Aim, Prosa’s DDA+) around a similar price-point.

According to VBox the current 10Hz version trades in limited (theoretical) preciseness for more stable reception with 2 satellite systems linked, especially under sub-optimal racing conditions (e.g. rain, cloud-cover).

As best practice, if you let any satellite logger initialize stationary for at least 5 minutes freely with 100% LOS prior to racing, then also my 20hz GPSonly unit tracks my racing-lines perfectly.
In this case, a properly initialized setup under normal weather conditions operating at 20Hz should be twice as granular/precise compared to 10Hz. Sadly not sold by Vbox anymore.

When racing for the first time coming May with both my 20Hz Vbox and 10Hz DDA+, I will be able to compare the differences in preciseness.

Nevertheless, the general consensus is that a 10Hz modern highly sensitive satellite receiver chip with sync compatibility to at least 2/3 sat systems, is a good trade-off between investment and minimally requirered performance for racing-line analysis.

If you go the HLT route, I would advise you to go for a unit Harry recommends to be compatible with his app:
iOS - Harry's GPS Laptimer

Besides you might want to check this thread about other experiences then DDA+, like Aim: Lap Timers

tadashi said:

Just had a bad experience tithe the gps lap timer...

Click to expand...

Familiar feeling. That sucks.
Can’t wait until our season opens too
good luck & nJoy racing.

RdashP said:

good, better or best?

Well VBox Sport in its current version has been downgraded from 20Hz (GPS only) to 10Hz (GPS+Glonass), like most of the competition (e.g. Aim, Prosa’s DDA+) around a similar price-point.

According to VBox the current 10Hz version trades in limited (theoretical) preciseness for more stable reception with 2 satellite systems linked, especially under sub-optimal racing conditions (e.g. rain, cloud-cover).

As best practice, if you let any satellite logger initialize stationary for at least 5 minutes freely with 100% LOS prior to racing, then also my 20hz GPSonly unit tracks my racing-lines perfectly.
In this case, a properly initialized setup under normal weather conditions operating at 20Hz should be twice as granular/precise compared to 10Hz. Sadly not sold by Vbox anymore.

When racing for the first time coming May with both my 20Hz Vbox and 10Hz DDA+, I will be able to compare the differences in preciseness.

Nevertheless, the general consensus is that a 10Hz modern highly sensitive satellite receiver chip with sync compatibility to at least 2/3 sat systems, is a good trade-off between investment and minimally requirered performance for racing-line analysis.

If you go the HLT route, I would advise you to go for a unit Harry recommends to be compatible with his app:
iOS - Harry's GPS Laptimer

Besides you might want to check this thread about other experiences then DDA+, like Aim: Lap Timers

Click to expand...

thank you for your insights, RdashP - apparently you have spent a lot of time and effort to fine-tune your setup.
I'll be curious to her back from you after your test in May!
BTW, have you ever considered this device:Home ?

what we really need on this forum, is a Can-Bus-savvy computer engineer, who can properly and completely "reverse-engineer" the V4 Can-Bus for us.
And of course share this knowledge with the rest of us
Maybe we could crowd-fund someone to do this?

With such knowledge, anyone interested could use the ODB-dongle of his/her choice to monitor/collect the data of personal interest - wirelessly.
This would enable many more and cheaper options to combine a "whichever-laptimer-you-like" device or app with such a LEBT dongle and a decent GPA receiver.

Also, the post-processing for analysis and video overlays should be much more open and compatible.

I, for example, like to use the "Telemetry Overlay" SW by Juan Irache on my Mac, which works really nicely (Telemetry Extractor for GoPro, DJI, Insta360 & more)
But as with all software, gauges mean nothing without the data to input ...

doctorb said:

yeah, it is quite telling, actually. It indicates that they don't care about hobbyist racers.
I decided to try a phone-based solution before investing in an AIM Solo. Got an ODB-Link MX+ plus the Ducati adapter, as previously mentioned. Will test HLT and RaceChrono on my iPhone and see how far I get. But will probably need a good GPS receiver in addtion.
Any recommendations between Qstarz BL-1000 GT, Dual XGPS 160 or others, based on your experience?

Click to expand...

I’ve been using the xgps 160 for two years and it meets my expectations.

It just developed a battery drain problem one year ago that is not solved with a new battery. So I removed the inside battery and now use plugged to the charger at a key on 12v connector. Still functional for my case.


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

muito obrigado pela sua reposta, Al21Corse!

doctorb said:

what we really need on this forum, is a Can-Bus-savvy computer engineer, ...
And of course share this knowledge with the rest of us
Maybe we could crowd-fund someone to do this?

With such knowledge, anyone interested could use the ODB-dongle of his/her choice to monitor/collect the data of personal interest - wirelessly.
This would enable many more and cheaper options to combine a "whichever-laptimer-you-like" device or app with such a LEBT dongle and a decent GPA receiver.

Click to expand...

Challenge is that although our functional requirements are indeed quite simple as you stated most of them, the largely undocumented technical complexity of such an 'open' telemetry eco-system requires a shitload of diverse hi-tech know-how and trail&error development for a plethora of potentially compatible but ever changing devices, services and software.

Why do you think Prosa, Aim, VBox, OBDlink etc. are selling us 'black boxes' w.o. any universal integration?

Even if such a wizzard enthousiast is up for this challenge, what is the lasting business case for developing, maintaining and supporting this fairly complex shareware solution(s)?
On top of that do we expect him to also also support us relatively small niche clientèle for free?

Personally I like the YouTube WUI approach of raceanalyse.com.
Too bad it is subscription based(only), also only 10Hz and potentially a GDPR issue: who is owner of your lapdata and who has access to it?

Anyway, a lot to be desired in this 'enthusiast' telemetry domain.
May be we should just turn pro and have our teams sort this .... out for us? LOL

I agree with most of what you are explaining.
However, Ducati is particularly difficult and on the other hand, some Japanese manufacturers make it quite easy to log into their data.
From what friends tell me, the R1 and the R6 basically allow you to read and adjust most parameters and for the Kawasaki bikes, complete dash / logger replacements with full data access supposedly are available off the shelf ...

doctorb said:

I agree with most of what you are explaining.
However, Ducati is particularly difficult and on the other hand, some Japanese manufacturers make it quite easy to log into their data.
From what friends tell me, the R1 and the R6 basically allow you to read and adjust most parameters and for the Kawasaki bikes, complete dash / logger replacements with full data access supposedly are available off the shelf ...

Click to expand...

I'm not your friend, but to have proper data logging on R1 or BMW type of the bikes, you have to buy a racing loom and Motec hardware which retails for around $6k.

How much does DDA cost ?

I am sure you know that price but the DDA+ and the Prosa SW are seriously limited. But thanks for the encouragement ...

doctorb said:

I am sure you know that price but the DDA+ and the Prosa SW are seriously limited. But thanks for the encouragement ...

Click to expand...

have a look at superbike unlimited store for a price of Motec kit for V4R. Its $17k to have proper datalogging.

RdashP said:

indeed. refer to this table 1st explained in previous link.

In an ideal world indeed.
On a compact moving moto LOS will always be compromised largely by a big blob of water (aka the rider) blocking ~30% of the open sky at any point in time, besides chosen fairing composition.

Click to expand...

Interestingly, yesterday I tested my 20Hz VBox Sport in a leather pouch versus freely in the open.
LOS signal-loss in leather pouch was gladly minimal also after less than 5 minutes of initialisation in between obstructing/ reflecting buildings of my neighbourhood:

VBox in leather pouch vs. free LOS:



On previous track-bike, I installed the VBox on the tail:



Now that the DDA+ GPS receiver is installed in the PV4 tail, I want to prevent signal-loss/ crosstalk and I don't want to drill into the PV4 OEM fairing.
Therefore I opted for this setup in the front right on top of the dashboard where the DDA+ sat receiver has a 2nd install option:




With a proper 5-10 minutes initialisation -at least once- in the morning at start of track-day of both DDA+ sat receiver (tail) and VBox (upfront) both should be good to go for clean racing-line track recordings.

I use racerender to overlay the DDA+GPS data on my 1199s. I’ll be moving to a V4 soon and hope to do the same

Check it out here:

Burls121 said:

I use racerender to overlay the DDA+GPS data

Click to expand...

cool imaging and impressive racing!

RaceRender doesn't seem to support DDA as direct source format for overlay?
If so, how do you convert *.dda files to e.g. *.csv first?
Tx