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What makes you say that? Aprilia's RSV4 isn't any more expensive to maintain than my duc.


No one is arguing that but, would you really not buy one because it didn't have 250hp? I doubt it.


Clearly you've never ridden a V4 sportbike? Go take and RSV4 RF for a spin. It'll change your mind!

Have you ever bought a ducati shim ? multiply that by 2
so twice as much, and If the desmosedici is an indicator It's way past 2x on price. and IIRC I think the valve intervals are shorter on the aprilia .

I concede your point on the HP thing I would be happy with a L4 if it had 200hp I'd buy one too . I don't mind the idea of the L4 I just don't think it will be better. hope I'm wrong hope you're right .

there is one other possibility , maybe the L4 is going to be over $100,000.00
if that is the case are you guys buying one LOL I'm out at that point.
what is the point where you guys yell uncle? what if the base model cost's 30k ?
 
Have you ever bought a ducati shim ? multiply that by 2
so twice as much, and If the desmosedici is an indicator It's way past 2x on price. and IIRC I think the valve intervals are shorter on the aprilia .

I concede your point on the HP thing I would be happy with a L4 if it had 200hp I'd buy one too . I don't mind the idea of the L4 I just don't think it will be better. hope I'm wrong hope you're right .

there is one other possibility , maybe the L4 is going to be over $100,000.00
if that is the case are you guys buying one LOL I'm out at that point.
what is the point where you guys yell uncle? what if the base model cost's 30k ?
I don't think a base will be $30k. It would be out of spec with the competition to the point where they wouldn't sell any. Nevertheless, I'm out way before $100k lol. However, I do believe that if Ducati was doing to build this engine for mass production they would think of a way to keep maintenance cost in line; either buy reduced costs, longer service intervals or both.
 
I'd be out at $30k since you'll loose your ... on resale later and I highly doubt it would make me any faster on the track than a RSV4 RF for much less $$$. Will have to wait and see what comes out to really decide.
 
There is a rumor floating around that the Corse shop might get something going for consumers. I think Aprilia has a decent program with there race shop prepping and selling bikes in different performance stages direct to anyone with the money. That would be a decent option for people who want a similar build from Ducati. The HP argument is very foreign to me as Im on a bike now that is so much better and capable that i will ever be that i dont have to think about that. I like building and fabricating more than riding and it shows LOL. 200hp is more than enough unless your really heavy or really need bragging rights. I built the motor in my 1299 really to make it a smoother platform with precision balancing, head work to smooth things out etc not to make more power. I did get a gain but that was not the mission. My next personal build is going more retro and all mechanical. I have a Desmo motor in a crate and I want to build something like the NCR Millona with no electronics and no BS. I don't even know how to use that stuff anyhow and were talking about adding more sophisticated versions to the new bikes. I wish my 1299 had cable operated FI and minimal electronics like my HRC bike. Soon your bike will be able to go for a ride without you and you can watch is from a set of VR goggles from the couch. Personally, I think it tipped the silly meter long ago. But that me and I know I am not very popular here and Im OK with that.
 
But that me and I know I am not very popular here and Im OK with that.

Don't sell yourself short Endo, I thoroughly enjoy reading about the work that the likes of yourself and Gecko do with the bikes, fabricating alternatives and putting in the time and effort to do it, just keep the pics coming, always interesting to see what people are doing with their rides.
 
There is a rumor floating around that the Corse shop might get something going for consumers. I think Aprilia has a decent program with there race shop prepping and selling bikes in different performance stages direct to anyone with the money. That would be a decent option for people who want a similar build from Ducati. The HP argument is very foreign to me as Im on a bike now that is so much better and capable that i will ever be that i dont have to think about that. I like building and fabricating more than riding and it shows LOL. 200hp is more than enough unless your really heavy or really need bragging rights. I built the motor in my 1299 really to make it a smoother platform with precision balancing, head work to smooth things out etc not to make more power. I did get a gain but that was not the mission. My next personal build is going more retro and all mechanical. I have a Desmo motor in a crate and I want to build something like the NCR Millona with no electronics and no BS. I don't even know how to use that stuff anyhow and were talking about adding more sophisticated versions to the new bikes. I wish my 1299 had cable operated FI and minimal electronics like my HRC bike. Soon your bike will be able to go for a ride without you and you can watch is from a set of VR goggles from the couch. Personally, I think it tipped the silly meter long ago. But that me and I know I am not very popular here and Im OK with that.

I am with you. I love riding my 38 year old Desmo as much as I love the 1199. Good thing about the old bike is I can even work on the engine.
 
That works out for both of us as I have you down in the "insignificant" category as well.
 
Ouch . Don't get hurt on the inside petal it was just a joke.
I don't even know who you are I found what you said amusing .
 
Would an L4 still use the 270 degree firing pattern?

If so how would they do that? I can only think of two ways. Either two cylinders are firing at once, then the others 270 degrees later. If that's true, I don't see how a 1000 cc L4 would make more power? The other option is 2 fire, wait 270, one other fires, wait 270, last one fires repeat. This might make more power, but torque would suffer.

Of course they could abandon the 270 firing pattern, but that means the non-firing pistons would not be travelling at max speed @ ignition, which is the beauty of the 270 twin design.

Anyway, if they are limited to 1000 cc's (per 4 cyl rules) it would seem that torque is going to suffer at the expense of top end HP. That would suck b/c torque is why most buy these things. I'd like to see a 3 cyl desmo 270 degree motor.

confused
 
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Aprilia's 4 makes 220-230 hp and you can buy this from Aprilia. I believe it was fairly easy to get 220+ out of the Desmo motor so this is not an issue.

please tell us how easy was to get 220+ out the Desmo, are you ever ride a desmo? just to get you an idea a 848 on the street is more fun than a desmo.that engine need a lot maintenance and is a pain in the ... to work on it
don't get me wrong I love the desmo but a 1199 is more fun to ride than the desmo. you can't believe how many customer ask to get their front fork revalve because they just too stiff Dan kyle laugh at me every time i need to send a 11k racing fork to make it soft.
 
Can someone please tell me what that guy just said?

hey man im on your side but when you said is easy to get 220 out the desmo we have a problem. because is not, that engine is max out already from 169hp to 220 your looking at 50hp
 
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Many Variables. Who's Dyno? Same Dyno? HP at the crank? HP at the wheel? Same fuel? NCR posted crankshaft numbers for the Desmo at 220. They also posted power at "over 200" whatever that means. Is Aprilia getting 220 -230 out of their 999cc engine? where? at the crank? All these HP numbers are crap from these mfgs. Hyped up sales numbers. Im guessing that given relatively the same accessory packages (ECU, exhaust, Variable injectors etc) that the 998 Desmo motor and the 999 RSV4 R FW should be capable of similar power output. Im sure that by the time the bike hits the show room floor that the numbers are quite different than the nifty sales pitch at pre launch. Its like the performance they give for light aircraft. They post climb, range and speed performance on a perfect day (59 degrees sea level) with the seats empty, the aircraft stripped to the bare minimums and just enough fuel to gather data. You get the plane with 4 people, baggage, full fuel and your lucky to see 70% of that. Just turbocharge the ....... thing already. Cosworth made 780hp out of 169 cubic inches at 40 psi in the 70s
 
.... no electronics and no BS. I don't even know how to use that stuff anyhow and were talking about adding more sophisticated versions to the new bikes. I wish my 1299 had cable operated FI and minimal electronics like my HRC bike. Soon your bike will be able to go for a ride without you and you can watch is from a set of VR goggles from the couch. Personally, I think it tipped the silly meter long ago. But that me and I know I am not very popular here and Im OK with that.

I initially had the same thoughts on all the electronics but it's only if you turn them up that they are noticeable. Ride in race mode on most of the new bikes and it's hardly any different to riding without except for when things go wrong and they can save you crashing. I like to ride with as little aid as possible and enjoy blipping on gear changes and stuff like that but I think the modern bikes have come of age and it doesn't take anything away from the experience. I'm certainly faster using up and down quick shifter and whilst I dont really use wheelie control as I like the front wheel in the air, I'm sure I would be a little quicker with it on a low setting.

The thing that makes it really useful in my opinion is that you dont need to compromise on geometry if you have electronics to help things. For instance you can have a short very agile bike with a lot of power whereas five years back you had to choose between the two.
 
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I initially had the same thoughts on all the electronics but it's only if you turn them up that they are noticeable. Ride in race mode on most of the new bikes and it's hardly any different to riding without except for when things go wrong and they can save you crashing. I like to ride with as little aid as possible and enjoy blipping on gear changes and stuff like that but I think the modern bikes have come of age and it doesn't take anything away from the experience. I'm certainly faster using up and down quick shifter and whilst I dont really use wheelie control as I like the front wheel in the air, I'm sure I would be a little quicker with it on a low setting.

The thing that makes it really useful in my opinion is that you dont need to compromise on geometry if you have electronics to help things. For instance you can have a short very agile bike with a lot of power whereas five years back you had to choose between the two.

exactly this. when do electronics actually engage on a Ducati? It's quite different than the BMW approach - I rode BMWs for quite a long time and they're safe but have highly intrusive electronics....granted, what was available 10 years ago isn't as refined as what you can get now. Anti-wheelie was built into my '10 BMW S1000RR; when the front came up about a foot, it felt like the Hand of God bitchslapping you right back down. Non-adjustable.

I've only had ABS intrusively engage on me once; this was on the track, and I had noticed that when ABS is set to 3, it felt like the rear caliper was being engaged more aggressively. I liked the more settled feeling setting up for corners as I don't touch the rear brake, relying on the computer-modulated linkage instead. I totally forgot about the anti-lift built into setting 3 - I came in a little hot on the front straight and found my braking distance increased as the bike kept the rear planted. I switched to ABS 2 and have never had it engage in the dry, either on the track or the street.

The one aid I shamelessly use is the wheelie control. I have my +/- buttons set to control this. In race mode, I can pin the throttle without fear - just need to bump that DWC up a few notches. It's my secret ace up the sleeve in drag racing someone. Everyone turns down their electronics if they have them, hoping to get every last ounce of power....but then unless you're a skilled drag racer, power gets wasted in keeping the front down and you're surprisingly much, much slower when the front comes up (more than a couple inches).

But all the other bits, they just never intervene...unless it's life or death. I would be dead today if I hadn't had ABS - not just to prevent my front from locking up in a panic stop, but also in keeping me from flipping the bike over. On ABS level 2, the electronics allow the rear to come up slightly, like a MotoGP rider...something that is far beyond my personal skillset.
 
Would an L4 still use the 270 degree firing pattern?

If so how would they do that? I can only think of two ways. Either two cylinders are firing at once, then the others 270 degrees later. If that's true, I don't see how a 1000 cc L4 would make more power? The other option is 2 fire, wait 270, one other fires, wait 270, last one fires repeat. This might make more power, but torque would suffer.

Of course they could abandon the 270 firing pattern, but that means the non-firing pistons would not be travelling at max speed @ ignition, which is the beauty of the 270 twin design.

Anyway, if they are limited to 1000 cc's (per 4 cyl rules) it would seem that torque is going to suffer at the expense of top end HP. That would suck b/c torque is why most buy these things. I'd like to see a 3 cyl desmo 270 degree motor.

confused

I also don't see how a V-4 behaves differently than an inline-4 in terms of the torque vs top-end power tradeoff. Looking at the torque figure for a Desmosedici RR - it's no different than any current inline-4 1000cc superbike, which are all significantly less than the torque laid down by the 1299.

I like how twins deliver power. That top-end surge on a traditional superbike is mind-warping - fun in the right circumstances but also intimidating. My 1299 is leaps and bounds faster than the S1000RR it replaced, but it doesn't feel as manic; if anything, it feels slower. In other words, I think I feel less acceleration Gs at any given moment, but my overall acceleration rate is faster.

While the idea of owning a street-legal V-4 Ducati, with 230-250hp and a warranty, *sounds* cool (and will undoubtedly literally sound amazing), the experience will unquestionably be different and be more in line with everything else out there. Then the choice ends up being if one prefers an even-firing screamer or an uneven big-bang firing motor. And huge torque numbers will be off the table period.

oh, and HUGE dealbreaker - if Ducati uses a perimeter frame, I won't buy it. I don't care if it's the best handling bike ever made. If I want a perimeter framed bike, I'll go back to BMW.

although...what if Ducati went halfway, using something similar to the BMW F800S frame. Single sided swingarm bolted directly to the crankcase, making the engine a stressed frame member...but then a half-perimeter frame around the motor? There's being faithful to tradition, sacrilege....but what do you call something that's in between? lol

(note: the Panigale breaks one key Ducati tradition - the frame. But it gets a huge pass on this in my book, because Preziosi/MotoGP. It didn't work, but it was one incredibly clever design that makes it a terrible shame that it wasn't successful, and part of my 1299 ownership experience is in homage to Preziosi's out-of-the-box thinking and elegant solutions, doing more with less. It's damned nearly on par with the Britten 1000. Perhaps not coincidentally, both secure the headstock to the frame with minimalist frames and use the motor as a stressed member holding the entire bike together.)
 

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