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kismetcapitan said:
I also don't see how a V-4 behaves differently than an inline-4 in terms of the torque vs top-end power tradeoff. Looking at the torque figure for a Desmosedici RR - it's no different than any current inline-4 1000cc superbike, which are all significantly less than the torque laid down by the 1299.

I like how twins deliver power. That top-end surge on a traditional superbike is mind-warping - fun in the right circumstances but also intimidating. My 1299 is leaps and bounds faster than the S1000RR it replaced, but it doesn't feel as manic; if anything, it feels slower. In other words, I think I feel less acceleration Gs at any given moment, but my overall acceleration rate is faster.

While the idea of owning a street-legal V-4 Ducati, with 230-250hp and a warranty, *sounds* cool (and will undoubtedly literally sound amazing), the experience will unquestionably be different and be more in line with everything else out there. Then the choice ends up being if one prefers an even-firing screamer or an uneven big-bang firing motor. And huge torque numbers will be off the table period.

oh, and HUGE dealbreaker - if Ducati uses a perimeter frame, I won't buy it. I don't care if it's the best handling bike ever made. If I want a perimeter framed bike, I'll go back to BMW.

although...what if Ducati went halfway, using something similar to the BMW F800S frame. Single sided swingarm bolted directly to the crankcase, making the engine a stressed frame member...but then a half-perimeter frame around the motor? There's being faithful to tradition, sacrilege....but what do you call something that's in between? lol

(note: the Panigale breaks one key Ducati tradition - the frame. But it gets a huge pass on this in my book, because Preziosi/MotoGP. It didn't work, but it was one incredibly clever design that makes it a terrible shame that it wasn't successful, and part of my 1299 ownership experience is in homage to Preziosi's out-of-the-box thinking and elegant solutions, doing more with less. It's damned nearly on par with the Britten 1000. Perhaps not coincidentally, both secure the headstock to the frame with minimalist frames and use the motor as a stressed member holding the entire bike together.)
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Not so much the torque as it is the firing order that most V4's use which enables them to put power down better than an traditional screamer I4 would. Yamaha decided to give a middle finger to everyone else and elected to use a "crossplane" to get the same effect. Although that method brings up some other packaging and technical issues. Net effect is the ability to use more throttle without losing as much grip as a tradition I4 would, while still maintaining the superior top end performance that more valve area gives.

Kawi was shutting down cylinders during corner exit in WSBK to simulate the effect electronically. It was really noticeable during the broadcasts if you paid attention to it. I haven't been watching much WSBK this year, so haven't noticed if they are still doing it or not. I had thought the electronics rules were simplified so they wouldn't be able to anymore. Doesn't seem to be stopping them though.

ETA: Just realized my response was more towards a track use justification and not how 99 percent of riders on the street will ride. Yeah, can't really beat a 1299 down low whether it's a V or an inline.
 
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Some of the "concerns" and arm chair speculation in this thread is pure comedy.

It seems fairly obvious what is coming down the pipeline and how the release cycle will go. This is not rocket science. If you want to know where we are going, first look at history.
 
I think for me it's simple. The aircraft industry has very rigid specs and non destructive testing in place for composites. Can the composites be done successfully, of course. I have the damn swingarm for the 1098. The question is, why. I can see the swingarm. They could make some adjustments to it sure. My issue with that is that if you tip the bike and it fractures the resin, your done from a structural integrity perspective. That piece has to be imaged and repaired. Not a problem on a race bike. Street bike and Ducati involved, fricken nightmare. The frame makes no sense at all. If it were redesigned to incorporate a proper size airbox then ok but because it's lighter than the SL? That's just silly. Visually you can barely see the damn thing anyhow. Not at all excited about that piece.
 
Thats not a valid argument. Where are the ceramic rotors? Where are the light weight engine pieces besides the rods and valves. Flywheel starter ring, Titanium clutch pieces, Titanium axles etc. The weight savings in those pieces will crush the weight savings of the CF frame vs a magnesium unit. I have the CF fairing stay. I needed to get out the gram scale to see the difference between it and the magnesium unit so this is not the issue. The issue is simple. The psychology that is being employed by using unnecessary CF is to justify charging you 80K for a 60K motorcycle. Pretty simple. They said that about the SL and I took a bunch of weight off the SL without CF wheels, swing arm or frame.
 
endodoc said:
Thats not a valid argument. Where are the ceramic rotors? Where are the light weight engine pieces besides the rods and valves. Flywheel starter ring, Titanium clutch pieces, Titanium axles etc. The weight savings in those pieces will crush the weight savings of the CF frame vs a magnesium unit. I have the CF fairing stay. I needed to get out the gram scale to see the difference between it and the magnesium unit so this is not the issue. The issue is simple. The psychology that is being employed by using unnecessary CF is to justify charging you 80K for a 60K motorcycle. Pretty simple. They said that about the SL and I took a bunch of weight off the SL without CF wheels, swing arm or frame.
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I couldn't disagree more. You really have missed the point of what this is...

If you were a race team and someone said we can shave off a gram there they would jump at it to gain any advantage they could, even half a gram they would grab it.

This is what Ducati are selling you, that level of detail, that level of performance and engineering. This is clearly lost on you.
 
Thats my point. They are not doing what you just said. They are not saving ever gram. Thats complete BS. I guarantee you your getting OEM brakes, Levers, Triple, axles etc. You just solidified my point. If you think they are going to deliver a "gram weighed" WSBK you have been seriously duped. Most of this bike will be just like all the other "special bikes" off the shel and OEM supplied. I guarantee you.
 
I'm not buying your argument. They are offering you the best they can while still keeping it ready for the road and still retain some reliability.

For me at least I don't see any place for carbon ceramic rotors on a road going motorcycle, that's why they haven't included them. You have to draw the line somewhere.

For what you are suggesting there is the RS16
 
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I completely proved that on my build thread. If Ducati really wanted to deliver what you described then the Corse shop would have built the SL and the Desmo and they would have used WSBK grade parts like I did. They had no intention then and do not now of replicating a true "no expense spared" Corse grade WSBK replica. Period. When the thing ships with Scicom rotors, Monoblocks front and rear, GP masters, Corse engine parts, WSBK radiator etc then we can start talking about Ducati delivering what you posted. Until that happens, its a very economically bloated 1299 that I would have no problem taking the challenge "again" of destroying from a build perspective. Ducati is going to continue to "special edition" the crap out of people for as long as they can.
 
Yes ..... Thats the point. If your going to do it then do it. Pull the ....... trigger and deliver the bike everyone thinks your going to deliver from the hype and never do. You can build a streetable full spec WSBK for 80-90K I absolutely guarantee it.
 
You have not proven you have built a better bike by supplying a parts list.
 
Your right. The parts build on the showroom model is vastly superior to what I posted. WTF was I thinking. Im done with builds. Obviously if I cant build something better than a $65,000.00 motorcycle that shares most of the same parts as the $24,000.00 bike the I should quit right now. Thank you for saving me from my miserable existence. You must work for Ducati.
 
Really? Show me. You have a large drive axle for the rear wheel. You technically can call the swing arm pins axles and you have the front axle. Show me a different rear axle. Show me a different set of swingarm shaft pins. Show me a different front axle on the SL vs the 1299r.
 
I'm sure this board cost money to run. Mutt is going to show us the different light weight axles (plural) on the SL vs the stock bike. If he can I will send this board via PayPal 100 bucks US if he fails to deliver, he can send 100 bucks to the board moderator for the betterment of the site. Game on
 
What are you showing me? That's a standard steel drive axle on that rear wheel I guarantee you. Front axle? What is it? It looks steel. Show us the specs and literature
 
So you are a metallurgical expert from viewing blurry photos of a proof of concept bike. That's about what I thought. Your in luck. It's October. The Great Pumpkin is coming.
 

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