Motorcycle.com 2015 Track Test

With the ZX-10 and R1 in the 190 rwhp range it would be a very close match up

What is interesting is when the new R1 came out only a couple of months back the bike mags all went mad on how amazing it is etc(my mag rant again) the S1000rr seemed to be relegated to the bike bin and this was the new dogs bollocks, now they all calm down a bit seems they all are starting to find fault with it and the S1000 after all is still the best all rounder, most seem to moan that its too high up the rev range, so I guess it has to come the R1.1 next year with mid range added, but did walk past it in the dealership it sort of lacked that stand out from the crowd that the Pani has but I bet its a great bike!

The Panigale makes all the Jap bikes look run-of-the-mill. The BMW has that "mad hatter" look you either like or hate.

Agree there was some "honeymoon" effect with the R1, but it's universally praised as handling like a 600 and with 190+ at the wheel is a serious ride

So which oil do you guys think I should put in my new Aprilia? I only wish it had more power because 175 isn't enough for me

really, the BEST sportbike on the market is the Aprilia RSV4 RF. Why we all don't own one, I have no idea, other than perhaps ignorance. Let's spend the next few days discussing the amazing attributes of the RSV4. It might even approach the mighty power and handling of the all-conquering R1. I mean, why discuss the excellent but ultimately an also-ran bike, the 1299?

kismetcapitan said:

really, the BEST sportbike on the market is the Aprilia RSV4 RF. Why we all don't own one, I have no idea, other than perhaps ignorance. Let's spend the next few days discussing the amazing attributes of the RSV4. It might even approach the mighty power and handling of the all-conquering R1. I mean, why discuss the excellent but ultimately an also-ran bike, the 1299?

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I don't know. I think we should talk about powerbandz and horsepowerz.

Stock or near stock I think the 1299 is the clear winner (price notwithstanding).

$30k total investment in any one of them, for serious track work? R1

BMW is somewhere in the middle, good do-it-all machine, comfortable, smooth, fast

The MCN test was the best I've seen this year and on point imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4kMSXKn9g

fzr100098 said:

Stock or near stock I think the 1299 is the clear winner (price notwithstanding).

$30k total investment in any one of them, for serious track work? R1

BMW is somewhere in the middle, good do-it-all machine, comfortable, smooth, fast

The MCN test was the best I've seen this year and on point imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4kMSXKn9g

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absolutely. out of the box stock, or with a full exhaust and map *only*, it's just a matter of personal taste preference between the RSV4, S1000RR, and 1299S. I still own my S1000RR; it's the power king, the street-friendly king...it's just a pig to hustle around a track, and I've taken a good 25lbs off of my bike from stock.

It's ALL about the torque

kismetcapitan said:

It's ALL about the torque

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On the street I completely agree, a major reason I bought this bike. On the track (at the highest level), the superior torque of the twin, with a 200 cc handicap no less, isn't helping Chaz reign in the screaming Kawasakis, and Ducati obviously went to V4 in MotoGP.

V4 is the future of Ducati racing and superbikes.

fzr100098 said:

On the street I coompletely agree, a major reason I bought this bike. On the track (at the highest level), the superior torque of the twin isn't helping Chaz reign in the screaming Kawasakis, and Ducati obvously went to V4 in MotoGP.

V4 is the future of Ducati racing and superbikes.

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I don't think Chaz is as good as Rea or Sykes. Put either of those two on the Ducati and I think the Ducati would be winning more often. I like CHaz a lot and think he's a good bloke, but he's not top tier yet. My 2c.

Cheers.

Chaz isn't as consistent, he's where Rea was a couple of years ago, but the ZX-10 pulls the Duc pretty easily down the straights and that's hard to overcome, even with better jump off the corners (which is marginal)

I can't see any advantage the twin or Ducati frame has at that level

fzr100098 said:

Chaz isn't as consistent, he's where Rea was a couple of years ago, but the ZX-10 pulls the Duc pretty easily down the straights and that's hard to overcome, even with better jump off the corners (which is marginal)

I can't see any advantage the twin or Ducati frame has at that level

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Remember, Chaz is the biggest and tallest guy in the field. He's a good 40 lbs heavier than some of them and he's 10" taller than some.. That means he accelerates slower and has more drag at the top end.. All these little things add up.

It will be interesting to see what Ducati does in WSBK, but the days of Fogarty-esque dominance are clearly over, and that's a good thing in my opinion, it was boring

fzr100098 said:

It will be interesting to see what Ducati does in WSBK, but the days of Fogarty-esque dominance are clearly over, and that's a good thing in my opinion, it was boring

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Agreed.. Plus, it makes it more exciting now that Ducati wins are fewer.. Rea's domination this year has made watching less fun, but I'm always on the edge of my seat watching Sykes and Chad; they are doing everything they can to catch Rea, but I think he has their number.

fzr100098 said:

On the street I completely agree, a major reason I bought this bike. On the track (at the highest level), the superior torque of the twin, with a 200 cc handicap no less, isn't helping Chaz reign in the screaming Kawasakis, and Ducati obviously went to V4 in MotoGP.

V4 is the future of Ducati racing and superbikes.

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In many races he finishes within less than a second of either Rea or Sykes, and the whole group is miles ahead of everyone else. Giugliano has recently been hot on their tails as well. Ducati is regularly scoring podiums, and then there was Aragon race #2, when NO ONE could catch Davies.

So true, they aren't catching the factory-supported Kawasakis. A win is a win, even if it's half a bike length, which is has often been in many races this year. But a podium is still a podium. And the only other rider who's keeping up with the two Kawasakis and both Ducatis is Leon Haslam on the formerly dominant Aprilia.

It takes a particular kind of fanboi to say that a bike that consistently finishes 3rd isn't good enough. Ducati has been making Rea and Sykes fight for position as well. It's very nice to see Ducati become competitive again.

No 1000cc twin can make the 280 crank horsepower needed to be competitive in MotoGP. Ducati may eventually move to a 1000cc 90 degree L-4 motor. But I foresee a couple more iterations of development of Ducati's flagship racing twin. I'd bet the farm we'll see variable valve timing on the Superquadro before Ducati goes 4 cylinder.


But V-twin torque is part of the Ducati character. Furthermore, Ducati had no troubles winning races and outright World Superbike championships on the 1198, which was at least 25-30hp less than the 4-cylinders on the grid. Something about "torque" and "corner drive" got Bayliss the championship in 2008 and Haga 2nd place in 2009.

kismetcapitan said:

In many races he finishes within less than a second of either Rea or Sykes, and the whole group is miles ahead of everyone else. Giugliano has recently been hot on their tails as well. Ducati is regularly scoring podiums, and then there was Aragon race #2, when NO ONE could catch Davies.

So true, they aren't catching the factory-supported Kawasakis. A win is a win, even if it's half a bike length, which is has often been in many races this year. But a podium is still a podium. And the only other rider who's keeping up with the two Kawasakis and both Ducatis is Leon Haslam on the formerly dominant Aprilia.

It takes a particular kind of fanboi to say that a bike that consistently finishes 3rd isn't good enough. Ducati has been making Rea and Sykes fight for position as well. It's very nice to see Ducati become competitive again.

No 1000cc twin can make the 280 crank horsepower needed to be competitive in MotoGP. Ducati may eventually move to a 1000cc 90 degree L-4 motor. But I foresee a couple more iterations of development of Ducati's flagship racing twin. I'd bet the farm we'll see variable valve timing on the Superquadro before Ducati goes 4 cylinder.


But V-twin torque is part of the Ducati character. Furthermore, Ducati had no troubles winning races and outright World Superbike championships on the 1198, which was at least 25-30hp less than the 4-cylinders on the grid. Something about "torque" and "corner drive" got Bayliss the championship in 2008 and Haga 2nd place in 2009.

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The Evo rules have a lot to do with where Ducati is currently running compared to last year. Do you think if WSBK goes back to full spec superbikes will the Panigale be competitive?

kismetcapitan said:

In many races he finishes within less than a second of either Rea or Sykes, and the whole group is miles ahead of everyone else. Giugliano has recently been hot on their tails as well. Ducati is regularly scoring podiums, and then there was Aragon race #2, when NO ONE could catch Davies.



So true, they aren't catching the factory-supported Kawasakis. A win is a win, even if it's half a bike length, which is has often been in many races this year. But a podium is still a podium. And the only other rider who's keeping up with the two Kawasakis and both Ducatis is Leon Haslam on the formerly dominant Aprilia.



It takes a particular kind of fanboi to say that a bike that consistently finishes 3rd isn't good enough. Ducati has been making Rea and Sykes fight for position as well. It's very nice to see Ducati become competitive again.



No 1000cc twin can make the 280 crank horsepower needed to be competitive in MotoGP. Ducati may eventually move to a 1000cc 90 degree L-4 motor. But I foresee a couple more iterations of development of Ducati's flagship racing twin. I'd bet the farm we'll see variable valve timing on the Superquadro before Ducati goes 4 cylinder.





But V-twin torque is part of the Ducati character. Furthermore, Ducati had no troubles winning races and outright World Superbike championships on the 1198, which was at least 25-30hp less than the 4-cylinders on the grid. Something about "torque" and "corner drive" got Bayliss the championship in 2008 and Haga 2nd place in 2009.

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GTFOH with your facts and realism. [emoji12]

Eleven 99 said:

The Evo rules have a lot to do with where Ducati is currently running compared to last year. Do you think if WSBK goes back to full spec superbikes will the Panigale be competitive?

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Good point - less exotic materials favor the twin. The further the Japanese can push piston speeds/rpm the more the 4 cylinder motors will gap twins in the hp war

All the stuff about "torque wins races" is antiquated, debunked mythology when it comes to motorcycle roadracing. This isn't monster truck racing, these are 360 lb bikes.

What wins races (rider skill, suspension geometry, set-up, tires, and related factors being equal) is horsepower, low mass, and aerodynamics - the end. Watch any WSBK race and any difference in drive off the corner between Ducati and Kawasaki is fractional, yet the ZX-10 will pull Ducati down the straight every single time. The four cylnders are singing between 8-9k and redline essentially at all times, so "midrange torque" is basically irrelevant.

Eleven 99 said:

The Evo rules have a lot to do with where Ducati is currently running compared to last year. Do you think if WSBK goes back to full spec superbikes will the Panigale be competitive?

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which is why the Evo rules are nice - it was getting to the point where a full factory WSBK bike was closer to a MotoGP CRT bike than a racing version of a street bike.

At the height of BMW's competitiveness in WSBK, it was all about electronics. Chaz Davies was using a system where one cylinder would cut out in sharper corners to reduce power, when he won the double on the S1000RR in Aragon. Sounded awesome btw But BMW's main excuse for dropping out of WSBK was the cost of software development, which was by far their greatest expense (so too for all major competitive teams).

If Gigi Dall'Igna was in charge of developing the full-spec Panigale, I'd bet the farm on at least a couple race wins and many podiums. Ducati Corse's problems for the past few years wasn't so much the bike as it was their corporate culture - something Gigi apparently has fixed.

If I wanted to stick with smooth, maximum power, I never would have bought a 1299S and would have continued to develop and built out my S1000RR (only things left really was to do about $10k in an Ohlins system and carbon fiber wheels. Well, maybe some race cams and the HP Race ECU). I'd be gushing over the BMW S1000XR instead of owning a Multistrada Granturismo.

The power king has been and remains the BMW S1000 motor. They've taken the japanese UJM superbike formula and did what Germans do.

I stopped riding my S1000RR because it bored me. What purpose does a bike serve, even if it's the best at this and the best at that, if I'm not compelled to ride it?

Ducati twins are unique. They are incredibly lightweight. The experience is completely immersive and it's like a drug. The Ducati L-twin is like the Porsche 911. At some point the basic design premise is archaic. But it is so integral and essential to the heart and soul of the machine that to throw it out would be to kill the brand itself.

The Porsche 911 has evolved - it now has water cooling <gasp>. But the engine still hangs ridiculously behind the rear axle. And yet the car continues to improve in performance and handling, where physics might dictate that to be impossible.

Irregular-firing 4 cylinders have taken away half of the advantage of a racing twin. But Ducati still manages to take the basic format of an engine design that should theoretically be obsolete, and continues to keep it competitive.

Nothing replicates the feel of a Ducati, on the street or the track. And that's the whole point of owning one. There are racers that are still stupid fast on a Ducati.

I respect all other makes of bikes; there are no real bad apples, except maybe the MV Agusta F4. But I love Ducatis, and the last place I want to hear opinions about Ducati being inherently inferior in design, is on a Ducati owners board. SMDH.

How do I personally feel about Preziosi's frameless bike design? $28k cash voted "I THINK IT'S BRILLIANT".