Motorcycle.com 2015 Track Test

Eleven 99 said:

Twins have not been required to run restrictors for quite a while now. The Panigale is not restricted.

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I just read the 2015 WSBK rulebook. If they feel the playing field needs to be leveled, intake restrictors may STILL be used, but you're right in that they were not cited for just twins. They're no longer using ballast weights, just intake restrictors.

Chaotic said:

It is a good thing that they do it the way they do. Noise and emissions tests are performed at 1/2 max HP RPM. So instead of producing a weaker bike, they simply put a programming restriction in the ECU to reduce max power RPM...thereby reducing the RPM point at which the tests are performed, which allows them to pass.

Then with a simple ECU flash (and slip-on) you can gain 15-18hp.

They do it like that to give us a high HP bike that can pass noise/emissions testing...and can easily be unrestricted.

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Question is how BMW gets away with getting the bike over here full power. Always makes it seem like they stomp everyone in hp, when it reality it's probably not more than 5-8 hp at peak. It's still the king, but the R1 is laying down 192-195 rwhp with pipe/flash

kismetcapitan said:

I just read the 2015 WSBK rulebook. If they feel the playing field needs to be leveled, intake restrictors may STILL be used, but you're right in that they were not cited for just twins. They're no longer using ballast weights, just intake restrictors.

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Yup. Performance balancing isn't the easiest thing in the world.

Judging engines by CC's is silly when they have different numbers of cylinders, or even a rotory engine. When a car or bike has an engine advantage that's ruining the "sport" of racing, then it needs balanced. Nothing more. If Ducati was crushing them with a 900cc engine, the restrictors or weights would still have to come out.

But I still think I'd be quite embarrassed if I built a V4 or I4 that made less power than a Vtwin that only had a 200cc bonus.

kismetcapitan said:

really, the BEST sportbike on the market is the Aprilia RSV4 RF. Why we all don't own one, I have no idea, other than perhaps ignorance. Let's spend the next few days discussing the amazing attributes of the RSV4. It might even approach the mighty power and handling of the all-conquering R1. I mean, why discuss the excellent but ultimately an also-ran bike, the 1299?

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Having raced an RSV4 since 2013, there are 2 huge downfalls with the RSV4.

1. Weight.

It is heavy as hell, really heavy. And unlike other bikes, all of the weight is in the chassis and motor. So when race prepped, the RSV4 doesnt get much lighter. Compared to my other bikes, it feels like i am pushing a Hayabusa up into the trailer.

Aprilia has this "thing" about the "beauty" of their chassis being marketable, but the problem is that the solid construction makes it really heavy. Even doing all of the normal race prep mods (Ti exhaust, lightweight battery, fairing stay, etc, lots of Ti bolts, remove EVAP stuff, so on and so forth) it is still MUCH heavier than any of my other bikes, even when those bikes are in full street trim.

2. Fueling

Unlike other bikes, the Upper injectors come in at about 7.5k rpm, and the Lowers drop off. On other bikes like my R6, both sets of injectors spray all the time. On the Ape, you can feel that drastic transition in the injectors. It is enough to upset the chassis because it will "kick in" right when you are at full lean angle, driving off the corner. It will feel like the bike goes dead for a second, then there is a big surge.

We have spent numerous practice sessions with Livengood having his laptop on hot pit. I will go do a couple of laps, come in and he will make fueling changes to try and smooth it out, then i will go back out. Repeat.

The only way to completely remove it is with a Marelli-type electronics system (~$10k) that can reprogram the injectors.

I love the power delivery of the V4, it has the same brakes as the Panigale, the electronics are very good, etc. It is just heavy as hell and the fueling sucks.

And on another note, it is very difficult to get the geometry completely sorted in Superstock trim (without changing the Triples, linkage, etc).

sean999r said:

I had seen quotes from Chaz that tyre management has been an issue, they don't seem to have any problems qualifying, but in the race they seem to struggle, loose grip more than Kawasaki, not sure if this is V twin torque, DTC or combination of both.

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There are many factors that go into tire life. The biggest one is technique. There are some riders who are able to make tires last longer than others. It is about throttle application.

Other than that, geometry, spring rate, compound choice, etc.

Beyond that, it is the mechanical grip of the motor. By nature Twins and V4s (and crossplane I4's) will offer better grip and tire life by default due to the pulses/firing order in how the power is put to the rear wheel.

At the end of the day, more often than not, tire life is a personal problem. Rea and Sykes on the same bike, Rea can make tires last much longer due to his riding style.

And Chaz is not running DTC. None of the electronics on his bike come from Ducati.

fzr100098 said:

Question is how BMW gets away with getting the bike over here full power. Always makes it seem like they stomp everyone in hp, when it reality it's probably not more than 5-8 hp at peak. It's still the king, but the R1 is laying down 192-195 rwhp with pipe/flash

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Their exhaust. If you can develop an OEM (ish) exhaust that drastically reduces noise levels and emissions, while still allowing max power, you have something.

Kawi chose to put race-worthy, full bore Ti headers on the bike from the factory. Which means the end user simply needs a slip-on. Which is great for us as far as cost savings, but it makes it almost impossible for the bike to pass noise/emissions standards in stock form...hence the ECU restriction.

That is why the BMW doesnt gain a ton of HP from an aftermarket exhaust, but the Ninja does.

Buliwyf said:

But I still think I'd be quite embarrassed if I built a V4 or I4 that made less power than a Vtwin that only had a 200cc bonus.

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Ducati ruled WSBK at one time with only a 200 cc bonus. What changed is the inline and V4s kept pushing the redline up to stratospheric levels where, even down on displacement, they produce more power. The big twins will never get much above 12k rpm despite Ducati's best efforts, too much piston mass.

The two stroke died too early in my opinion - so much potential - unfortunately the same fate faces the rotary with Mazda giving up on it

Chaotic said:

I love the power delivery of the V4, it has the same brakes as the Panigale, the electronics are very good, etc. It is just heavy as hell and the fueling sucks.

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Have you or will you get to ride the new RF?

fzr100098 said:

Ducati ruled WSBK at one time with only a 200 cc bonus. What changed is the inline and V4s kept pushing the redline up to stratospheric levels where, even down on displacement, they produce more power. The big twins will never get much above 12k rpm despite Ducati's best efforts, too much piston mass.

The two stroke died too early in my opinion - so much potential - unfortunately the same fate faces the rotary with Mazda giving up on it

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actually, Ducati's golden era was when they were running the 996 and 999, so they were still under 1000cc like anyone else. Watching races from the early 2000s is more like watching the Ducati Cup than World Superbike.

It's when the inline 4s really started making a lot of power that Ducati lobbied for (and got) the 200 extra cc exemption. There was also a 150cc allowance to run in supersport against the 600cc bikes, but I don't recall the 748 or 749 ever being competitive. The 848 never fit into any rulebook until the AMA let it run against the 600cc bikes. To my knowledge, no other race series except AMA let the 848 compete, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

fzr100098 said:

Have you or will you get to ride the new RF?

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I havent.

I considered getting one, but couldnt justify it. It is basically just an "updated" version. It has a little more power, but it is the same heavy ... chassis, same wheels, same brakes, same electronics, same fueling, so on and so forth.

And after dropping about $10k worth of mods on mine, the RF wouldnt be an improvement.

I do love the V4 motor and the ergos of the bike. And of course the electronics and brakes are great. If they come out with a ground-up redesign that knocks 25lbs off the bike (in the motor and chassis) and change the fueling setup with the upper/lower injectors spraying one at a time...then i will get another one.

The ridiculous weight and fueling are deal breakers for me. Other than those things, the bike is spectacular.

Without a doubt the best "bang for the buck" liter bike right now is a 2011 ZX-10.

They have remained unchanged since 2011 with the exception of an electronic damper than nobody gives a .... about. Even though they havent changed at all, the 2011's are still considered "old" and they can be found in great shape for $7-8k if you look hard enough.

They come with large bore Titanium headers from the factory. With nothing but a slip-on, ECU reflash and good tune for MR12 you can get a true 200hp to the rear wheel.

Throw on some Ohlins suspension, SS brake lines and new pads, 520 chain/sprocket kit, put bodywork on it.....and for ~13k you have a bike capable of winning any race in the Nation.

If i simply wanted to get on the track with a bike capable of winning without spending a ton of money, i would find me a 2011 ZX-10.

Chaotic said:

Without a doubt the best "bang for the buck" liter bike right now is a 2011 ZX-10.

They have remained unchanged since 2011 with the exception of an electronic damper than nobody gives a .... about. Even though they havent changed at all, the 2011's are still considered "old" and they can be found in great shape for $7-8k if you look hard enough.

They come with large bore Titanium headers from the factory. With nothing but a slip-on, ECU reflash and good tune for MR12 you can get a true 200hp to the rear wheel.

Throw on some Ohlins suspension, SS brake lines and new pads, 520 chain/sprocket kit, put bodywork on it.....and for ~13k you have a bike capable of winning any race in the Nation.

If i simply wanted to get on the track with a bike capable of winning without spending a ton of money, i would find me a 2011 ZX-10.

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Damn, I wasted all this money on my Ducati when I could have done that with an old zx10 AND could have got a second one with an extended swingarm with bedazzled vest and patches.

Truly all I really want is an updated R6. I really might trade in the 1299 for 2 of those, depending on updates of course...not that it isnt capable now.

The street shootout is even more lame, but they like the S1000RR and Aprilia and complain about the Ducati heat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNiA9OwvdoI

Chaotic said:

Their exhaust. If you can develop an OEM (ish) exhaust that drastically reduces noise levels and emissions, while still allowing max power, you have something.

Kawi chose to put race-worthy, full bore Ti headers on the bike from the factory. Which means the end user simply needs a slip-on. Which is great for us as far as cost savings, but it makes it almost impossible for the bike to pass noise/emissions standards in stock form...hence the ECU restriction.

That is why the BMW doesnt gain a ton of HP from an aftermarket exhaust, but the Ninja does.

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So does the BMW come with Ti headers?

Chaotic said:

I havent.

I considered getting one, but couldnt justify it. It is basically just an "updated" version. It has a little more power, but it is the same heavy ... chassis, same wheels, same brakes, same electronics, same fueling, so on and so forth.

And after dropping about $10k worth of mods on mine, the RF wouldnt be an improvement.

I do love the V4 motor and the ergos of the bike. And of course the electronics and brakes are great. If they come out with a ground-up redesign that knocks 25lbs off the bike (in the motor and chassis) and change the fueling setup with the upper/lower injectors spraying one at a time...then i will get another one.

The ridiculous weight and fueling are deal breakers for me. Other than those things, the bike is spectacular.

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I always thought us tall guys would be uncomfortable on the RSV4. I believe you are tall like me as well. Got any pics for reference.

Unfortunately wrote off my 1098 through no fault of my own not too long ago. So I'm looking for something else. Maybe a V4!
I'm also secretly in love with the hypermotard.

Grayson said:

Damn, I wasted all this money on my Ducati when I could have done that with an old zx10 AND could have got a second one with an extended swingarm with bedazzled vest and patches.

Truly all I really want is an updated R6. I really might trade in the 1299 for 2 of those, depending on updates of course...not that it isnt capable now.

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I'm loving my R6 for trackdays. It really is a little screamer and goes into corners so well.

I wonder if the new R6 will get an x-plane motor as well? That would be so badass!

love2ride said:

I'm loving my R6 for trackdays. It really is a little screamer and goes into corners so well.

I wonder if the new R6 will get an x-plane motor as well? That would be so badass!

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No, more than likely a triple. Its nearly perfect as it is, with electronic aids and a few tweaks it will further enhance the overall package.

R6 is the ultimate track bike unless you have lots of disposable income and can afford to toss a $30k machine down the road

Grayson said:

No, more than likely a triple. Its nearly perfect as it is, with electronic aids and a few tweaks it will further enhance the overall package.

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I hear triples don't make the same power as IL4 when fully built. Not sure how true this is but either a triple or a x-plane on the R6 would be a very nice change.

fzr100098 said:

R6 is the ultimate track bike unless you have lots of disposable income and can afford to toss a $30k machine down the road

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That's a broad statement . To me a 600 is the last thing I want to be riding .