Motorcycle.com 2015 Track Test

fzr100098 said:

All the stuff about "torque wins races" is antiquated, debunked mythology when it comes to motorcycle roadracing. This isn't monster truck racing, these are 360 lb bikes.

What wins races (rider skill, suspension geometry, set-up, tires, and related factors being equal) is horsepower, low mass, and aerodynamics - the end. Watch any WSBK race and any difference in drive off the corner between Ducati and Kawasaki is fractional, yet the ZX-10 will pull Ducati down the straight every single time. The four cylnders are singing between 8-9k and redline essentially at all times, so "midrange torque" is basically irrelevant.

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Troy Bayliss winning the WSBK championship is neither mythological nor debunkable. It happened. The jap bikes were making 215hp. The 1098R made 180, maybe 190.

What weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers? When all bikes must weigh the same, that kind of evens out the mass part, doesn't it?

FIM limits the aerodynamics of motorcycles in competition, after the streamliner disasters in the past.

And you're absolutely right - the ZX-10R pulls fractionally on the Panigale on straights. But that difference has been overcome in races by slipstreaming, so that gap isn't exactly huge. And both bikes are miles ahead of everything else on the grid, except the Aprilia with Haslam on board.

You have Jonathan Rea on a ZX-10R winning races. You have Chaz Davies time and again, losing to him. Is that PROOF of the inferiority of the twin? Well, with the gap never more than a second, and in a couple races Rea won by a wheel, it's a ridiculous piece of evidence.

It's like arguing if Warren Buffet or Bill Gates is wealthier. You can objectively calculate that answer. But in practice, the difference means jack .....

Again, with the Japanese (and BMW) fours pushing rpm limits ever higher (Evo rules tried to contain this) the time of twin dominance in WSBK came and went. Horsepower wins races.

kismetcapitan said:

which is why the Evo rules are nice - it was getting to the point where a full factory WSBK bike was closer to a MotoGP CRT bike than a racing version of a street bike.

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Yes, Baz hopped off the 2014 ZX-10R superbike and onto the Forward Yamaha and said the biggest difference he noticed was just the tires. I thought that spoke volumes to how far street bikes can be developed with a big enough budget. We have superstock classes to get somewhat of an idea of the performance potential with minimial modifications. The superbike class is supposed to take what you can buy in a showroom and mod it to the max and throw worldclass riders onboard and let them duke it out. Now the superbike class is a hybrid of the superstock class.

Eleven 99 said:

Yes, Baz hopped off the 2014 ZX-10R superbike and onto the Forward Yamaha and said the biggest difference he noticed was just the tires. I thought that spoke volumes to how far street bikes can be developed with a big enough budget. We have superstock classes to get somewhat of an idea of the performance potential with minimial modifications. The superbike class is supposed to take what you can buy in a showroom and mod it to the max and throw worldclass riders onboard and let them duke it out. Now the superbike class is a hybrid of the superstock class.

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The biggest reason for putting limits on the SB class is money and sponsors. If they keep the cost down, more manufactures can participate.

Ljuice26 said:

The biggest reason for putting limits on the SB class is money and sponsors. If they keep the cost down, more manufactures can participate.

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Unfortunately simply cutting costs doesn't seem to be keeping the manufacturers around. BMW & Bimota left, then EBR went bankrupt and had to pull out. Honda is spending millions in MotoGP, but act like they don't have spare dime for their WSBK team.

fzr100098 said:

Horsepower wins races.

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Is that right? Must be so blindingly obvious that I must be an ..... to not understand such a simple concept.

Except....who makes the most horsepower in MotoGP. Ducati does. Honda is second. Yamaha third. In an even drag race, where a Yamaha M1 and Ducati Desmosedici exits a corner at the same speed, the Ducati ALWAYS pulls ahead of the Yamaha. The difference is far more pronounced than the slight edge that the ZX-10R has over the Panigale.

In fact, the Desmosedici has been by far the most powerful bike in MotoGP since its introduction in the 990cc era. But the relatively underpowered Yamaha M1s keep winning - they've won every single race since COTA.

On a track, how much speed you can carry through a corner + how much power you have to slingshot out of the corner equals or surpasses outright horsepower.

And you can't have horsepower without torque. HP = torque x rpm / 5252

A blind man can see how fast the Panigale is this year in World Superbike. To argue otherwise simply means one hasn't seen the races and the wheel-to-wheel battles.

Conversely, the Desmosedici is doing better in MotoGP because they've finally gotten the thing to turn properly without losing speed and wearing out tires too early.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, or win a race.

Eleven 99 said:

Unfortunately simply cutting costs doesn't seem to be keeping the manufacturers around. BMW & Bimota left, then EBR went bankrupt and had to pull out. Honda is spending millions in MotoGP, but act like they don't have spare dime for their WSBK team.

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BMW spent millions on their software. Going to a spec ECU meant that investment went down the drain, so they pulled out. BMW also has a reputation for not sticking it out for the long haul. They flaked out on F1 too.

Bimota was thrown out basically, because in order to race, you must sell x number of street versions of your race bike. And they never got around to actually manufacturing the BB3.

What a joke of a shootout.

Cool factor and price have nothing to do with lap times. Any review that the BMW bests the new R1 or 1299 should be taken with a grain of salt and this is one of them.

kismetcapitan said:

Is that right? Must be so blindingly obvious that I must be an ..... to not understand such a simple concept.

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*sigh*

I clearly said all other factors being equal, including rider skill - are we comparing Doviziso to Rossi, Lorenzo, and Marquez now - really? You have no point, plus you're off on a rabbit trail because the topic was the twin vs. 4s in WSBK

On a track, how much speed you can carry through a corner + how much power you have to slingshot out of the corner equals or surpasses outright horsepower.

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?

How much speed a racer can carry through (and out of) a corner is more a function of rider skill, suspension, bike weight/mass, and tires (factors I already listed) - not some minor advantage in torque.

Again, watch the Ducati vs. ZX-10 getting off the corner, it's a marginal difference. The days of Bayliss domination are over. Your antiquated "torque wins roadraces" argument simply doesn't fly in 2015 and beyond.

fzr100098 said:

*sigh*

I clearly said all other factors being equal, including rider skill - are we comparing Doviziso to Rossi, Lorenzo, and Marquez now - really? You have no point, plus you're off on a rabbit trail because the topic was the twin vs. 4s in WSBK



?

How much speed a racer can carry through (and out of) a corner is more a function of rider skill, suspension, bike weight/mass, and tires (factors I already listed) - not some minor advantage in torque.

Again, watch the Ducati vs. ZX-10 getting off the corner, it's a marginal difference. The days of Bayliss domination are over. Your antiquated "torque wins roadraces" argument simply doesn't fly in 2015 and beyond.

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Yes sir. You are absolutely correct sir. It is foolish for anyone to question your boundless wisdom and absolute correctness in opinion.

IIRC Checas 1098r had 50mm restricters on it

and the one thing that has changed in the past 10 years of racing is the electronics . (that and the bikes are not selling so the mfgrs are walking)

apples to apples the twin usually can hold its own against the I4's as it is doing right now. it gets pulled on some straights but pulls on others . either way it is in the lead pack. as kcaptain said.

the 1199/1299 has the best power to weight ratio of any bike out IIRC but the .... wads who write reviews always focus on just max hp

btw in relative terms the ducati is at the top of the class in hp regardless of what jap bike manufactures have allegedly done to lower horsepower

by WSBK rules, 1200cc twins have to run circular intake restrictors, depending on how well they're doing. Scoring podiums every race, Ducati is having to run the maximum restrictors.

look up the rulebook, horsepower boy. without the mandated restrictors, the Panigale would be pulling on the ZX-10Rs.

Twins have not been required to run restrictors for quite a while now. The Panigale is not restricted.

Eleven 99 said:

Twins have not been required to run restrictors for quite a while now. The Panigale is not restricted.

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This. That "fact" has been getting thrown around erroneously for a couple seasons now.

I had seen quotes from Chaz that tyre management has been an issue, they don't seem to have any problems qualifying, but in the race they seem to struggle, loose grip more than Kawasaki, not sure if this is V twin torque, DTC or combination of both. Most people are just looking at WSB however last year Barni Racing convincely won WSSTK championship which is miles closer to stock than WSB

Davide Giugliano led much of the Misano race. I think he was just desperately trying to cool his butt from the heat coming off the rear header

I still think the SSSA presents a huge challenge when it comes to maximizing tire wear and ability to put power to the ground. People much smarter than me get paid to figure that out while I just speculate from my keyboard. But it's not like Ducati is really that far off in WSBK, and damn sure is up there in Superstock. I think Rea would be leading it on anything not made by Honda or EBR this season.

kismetcapitan said:

look up the rulebook, horsepower boy. without the mandated restrictors, the Panigale would be pulling on the ZX-10Rs.

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shakazulu12 said:

That "fact" has been getting thrown around erroneously for a couple seasons now.

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Self-ownage is always the best kind

These guys are living in the past.

Ljuice26 said:

Take out Price, Cool Factor and Grin Factor and the 1299 won 7 out of the 12 categories. So, to me, the 1299 was the better bike.

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Yep my thoughts exactly.
Plus no laptimes makes this test worthless.

krissrock said:

why in the world would the manufacturers release HP powers and sell the bike with HP Throttle restrictions to never allow to actually produce the claimed power

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It is a good thing that they do it the way they do. Noise and emissions tests are performed at 1/2 max HP RPM. So instead of producing a weaker bike, they simply put a programming restriction in the ECU to reduce max power RPM...thereby reducing the RPM point at which the tests are performed, which allows them to pass.

Then with a simple ECU flash (and slip-on) you can gain 15-18hp.

They do it like that to give us a high HP bike that can pass noise/emissions testing...and can easily be unrestricted.