New 1299 SL Has this really been thought through?

I'd be more worried about the wheels being CF than the swingarm. The latter has the tire, rim and shock cushioning it from blows. The rim just has the tire separating it from the forces of the road.

But safety issues aside, you've got to have a lot of money to burn if you're going to spend 80K on an SL that will be 'obsolete' within a year. However--if it's the last twin superbike Ducati makes, the SL will be a 993 GT2 equivalent in the Ducati universe.

And if Ducati does something truly insane, like go with a hybrid or turbocharged (or both) power for their next bike, there'd be great even more reasons to snatch up an SL.

bradp51 said:

I am no aircraft engineer but I know Boeing are only using CF on airfoils that are not critical if they fail. I recall a scaled P51 Mustang project aircraft called the Thunder Mustang. It claimed stress test on the wings up to 9g. Later on a test flight their chief pilot pulled a lot less g than that and snapped one wing off. He did not survive.

I visited a mate of mine in Hospital only a few months ago that shattered his front carbon wheel. He hit the brakes hard and off the track at the same time. Lost it at about 170 kmph. I like the look of shiny carbon but.....

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yep.... there have been quite a few instances of cf wheels blowing up...

I'm no engineer...but any force that's going to destroy a carbon rim will do the same to a light weight magnesium wheel as well.....

We want the overall lighter wheels for the hugely improved riding characteristics they have, that cannot be disputed....if you want to go back to a more solid heavy duty/less likely to destroy itself rim , so be it.....after you try the lighter wheels I doubt you'd go backwards (no pun intended, insert smiley face here endodoc)

BST's are truly hard to beat, unless you stack them up against a Desmosedici wheel, in which case the desmosedici rims were actually lighter (or extremely close & for $18k for the set, you'd expect it?)

I'm looking at the mag SL wheels at 12.65 pounds total. Wonder what these new BST's would weigh? How to you attach CF spokes to a mag or aluminium rim?

Wheels are a big deal for sure as stated. I had the pleasure of talking with Koenigsegg about their wheels for the One. They build their own wheels. I was impressed with the level of detail Christian had on the mechanical aspects of CF used in structural powered rotational devices. The argument for me was the way the power was delivered harmonically from the twin was potentially more problematic at the intersection where alloy meets CF in the drive section of the wheel. They had similar problems with high torque diesel applications. I could conceptually see this and there are examples of rim/hub issues with BST, Rotobox and Dymag. I can see where the power distribution dynamics may favor a 200hp V5 over a 200hp L2. Other than that I think the wheels are fine. The other considerations are crash damage. I can take a metal wheel that has an insult and massage the area smooth of defect (within reason) and alleviate any stress fractures. CF, if you get a lamination compromise, it's a crap shoot. Also the non destructive testing for metal is easier and more available. I chose the OZ mag DOT wheels. They are a mag/alloy combo and they are super close in weight to BST. I have had Marchesini mag wheels on many bikes and never had an issue so for me it's kind of a wash. I don't gain anything by going CF on wheels and visually I prefer the OZs to what is currently out there in CF. Now contrary to some here, the ceramic rotors crush the minimal weight comparison on a good set of metal wheels vs CF. So again it's grams vs kg. I get the cost factor. Every hyper car and modern jet are using composite brake disc so the reliability factor is for me not an issue. I have only seen one set of BT ceramics fail and that was a destructive crash that totaled the bike. If Ducati wanted to expand the "SL" they could make a significant impact here but your getting stock 1299 rotors I'm afraid. In closing the new BST wheels are within grams weight wise of the current BSTs.

Carbon hub/spokes has been done. Me thinks that's a bad idea. In bicycles it's the opposite. Almost everyone has a carbon rim. I did see carbon spokes at interbike. $14.00 ea. That's a pricy spoked wheel. There will at some point be lighter weight composite tire construction. We have has this on bicycle tires for a very long time.

endodoc said:

Ok so we hear the rumor and we see a mockup of a bike. Has anyone or does anyone know of anyone who has seen the new carbon pieces?. The wheels do exist. BST has had them for a bit (not for sale yet). BST is NOT the contractor for a swingarm or a frame for Ducati which they should be as they have a proven track record. The "proposed" contractor is a firm in Germany. There is a frame for the 1199 from this mfg but I was told that it was never structural. Proof of concept, which is a long way from "road worthy" All of this is nifty but the real question is "why"?. If you are coming out with a new power plant for the flagship model, do you spend the money on R&D and tooling to do another SL on a platform that is being phased out? This makes little sense to me. First it makes little financial sense and second, am I going to be pissed that I buy this thing and shortly after that, a completely new model comes out? As fantastic as the Panigale is, there has to be a successor in the works. Thoughts?

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"thoughts"?

you have a wee-bit too much time on your hands - get out there and ride !

remember....you have tons-o-sun where you live....or haven't you looked out your basement window lately

I know. We're building a new house and for the last few weeks I have been basically stuck there with contractors working on crap so I have been passing idle time with the laptop annoying you. However now that these guys seem to be on auto pilot, it's time to go play and thanks for posting pics of your bike. I really like the stealth paint. It works.

AntiHero said:

I'd be more worried about the wheels being CF than the swingarm. The latter has the tire, rim and shock cushioning it from blows. The rim just has the tire separating it from the forces of the road.

But safety issues aside, you've got to have a lot of money to burn if you're going to spend 80K on an SL that will be 'obsolete' within a year. However--if it's the last twin superbike Ducati makes, the SL will be a 993 GT2 equivalent in the Ducati universe.

And if Ducati does something truly insane, like go with a hybrid or turbocharged (or both) power for their next bike, there'd be great even more reasons to snatch up an SL.

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Good point.

If I knew for sure your prediction was true, I would buy one for sure.

shakazulu12 said:

The swingarm could be cool if they really put some effort into playing with the flex characteristics and gave you something along the lines of what they would use in WSBK if they were allowed to. But it would be much better if it came from the Corse division IMHO. Then you could legitimately make a claim to using Moto GP tech on the special edition.

Granted, I don't know who Ducati is/was farming out those GP parts to in the first place. If they are coming from the same place, then cool. Otherwise I personally would have some concerns over it. Like you, I question the decision to not use BST on that one.

As far as why make it? Well, it's a halo piece, marketing exercise. Not only will they turn a profit on the units sold directly, but the hype and marketing generated by it will keep things humming along until they can crank out the next model. Hell, it may be funding efforts for that. I don't really hate Ducati for trying it. They have to grab as much cash as they can, when they can. No different that Ferrari or Porsche special editions IMHO.

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This.

I wouldn't even trust Ducati Corse with the swingarm and airbox, even if they made each one by hand. Can they make one strong enough? Yes. But what led to the end of Preziosi's career was that they couldn't get control over the flex of either piece anywhere close to where the Japanese were, with their aluminum parts hand-welded together, sometimes in many pieces to fine-tune flex.

Mutt1979 said:

The first SL came out, a year later I have the same (almost) engine. I would hope that in a year the 1299 SL engine would be available in something. I know, I know, you don't think another Panigale is coming, but it might go into something!?

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It would be cost effective to detune the Superquadro with milder cams; a "Superquadro 11" if you will. Maybe they're just using up the rest of the tooling life of the Testastretta.

Or maybe the very short stroke Superquadro just can't be retuned into a milder machine with fat low-end torque delivery....

My dealer told me for the new SL it is a non-refundable deposit of 16K directly to Ducati Italy, as for the last SL run several dealerships put down the deposit and didn't sell - and people who wanted them could not get them....

GMo73 said:

My dealer told me for the new SL it is a non-refundable deposit of 16K directly to Ducati Italy, as for the last SL run several dealerships put down the deposit and didn't sell - and people who wanted them could not get them....

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My case is a perfect example.Ordered Anni in July and never got....with no explanation WTF.Very disappointed.

I built a 1299 for a guy using the frame from Carbon Sigl. The only real thing that bugged me was needing to drill two small holes in the frame side for the filter installation (using an MWR SBK filter.) Tom, from Carbon Sigl, assured me that it posed no problem, but it's a shame they didn't mould in lugs to use the standard filter emplacement.
It's very light, and very well made. I wasn't too happy about the fixation points between the airbox/frame and the motor, though. Some deep insert alloy lugs there would have been good, as Tom recommends NOT using the standard Nord-Lock washers which would start to splinter the carbon. Of course, they didn't make any recommendations about what to use, but I got something functioning, although it needs regular checking after each race. So far, it hasn't moved an iota.
It's also a shame the steering head insert is fixed, so you can't easily modify rake and trail by changing inserts, but that's not really a problem.
I stayed with the standard swing-arm, as I didn't want the rear end being too light. Nice to have a bit of weight back there.
I'd have loved to have hooked up data-logging and done some back-to-back comparisons with a stock 1299. Troy Corser rode the bike and loved it, especially when he found he could turn off the traction control...

Total build, including the bike, was a LOT cheaper than the Superleggera from Ducati, too. With the Akrapovic system, power was 203 cv on a dyno, but for the rider, that was plenty fast. Weight without fuel was 158kg. It could go even lower with titanium axles and other lightweight engine mods, but that really wasn't the issue. A diet for the rider would have been more effective..

Blue Guy said:

I built a 1299 for a guy using the frame from Carbon Sigl. The only real thing that bugged me was needing to drill two small holes in the frame side for the filter installation (using an MWR SBK filter.) Tom, from Carbon Sigl, assured me that it posed no problem, but it's a shame they didn't mould in lugs to use the standard filter emplacement.
It's very light, and very well made. I wasn't too happy about the fixation points between the airbox/frame and the motor, though. Some deep insert alloy lugs there would have been good, as Tom recommends NOT using the standard Nord-Lock washers which would start to splinter the carbon. Of course, they didn't make any recommendations about what to use, but I got something functioning, although it needs regular checking after each race. So far, it hasn't moved an iota.
It's also a shame the steering head insert is fixed, so you can't easily modify rake and trail by changing inserts, but that's not really a problem.
I stayed with the standard swing-arm, as I didn't want the rear end being too light. Nice to have a bit of weight back there.
I'd have loved to have hooked up data-logging and done some back-to-back comparisons with a stock 1299. Troy Corser rode the bike and loved it, especially when he found he could turn off the traction control...

Total build, including the bike, was a LOT cheaper than the Superleggera from Ducati, too. With the Akrapovic system, power was 203 cv on a dyno, but for the rider, that was plenty fast. Weight without fuel was 158kg. It could go even lower with titanium axles and other lightweight engine mods, but that really wasn't the issue. A diet for the rider would have been more effective..

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Many thanks for your insights! Are the brake rotors steel? 158kg is pretty impressive.

Gecko said:

Many thanks for your insights! Are the brake rotors steel? 158kg is pretty impressive.

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Yeah, Brembo T-drive 320 mm. They're light and reliable. Carbon discs would have been fun, but they're complicated to keep constant temperature in them over a variety of track conditions. The calipers are the slightly heavier billet calipers rather than the lighter lithium calipers I wanted to use, but Brembo had no stock.
I think you could get the bike even lighter without too much effort, but there's not really much point in my humble opinion, because light means nervous, and for a rider like Corser, that's not really a problem, but for the common mortal, it's better to have a decent compromise.

When I raced 748RS's, I went back to heavier cranks to get a bit more inertia, and sometimes we'd load the chassis with lead pucks on the 996 RS's just to get a bit more weight over the rear or the front depending on what the rider wanted. Lightness IS rightness, up to a certain point.

Blue Guy said:

I built a 1299 for a guy using the frame from Carbon Sigl. The only real thing that bugged me was needing to drill two small holes in the frame side for the filter installation (using an MWR SBK filter.) Tom, from Carbon Sigl, assured me that it posed no problem, but it's a shame they didn't mould in lugs to use the standard filter emplacement.
It's very light, and very well made. I wasn't too happy about the fixation points between the airbox/frame and the motor, though. Some deep insert alloy lugs there would have been good, as Tom recommends NOT using the standard Nord-Lock washers which would start to splinter the carbon. Of course, they didn't make any recommendations about what to use, but I got something functioning, although it needs regular checking after each race. So far, it hasn't moved an iota.
It's also a shame the steering head insert is fixed, so you can't easily modify rake and trail by changing inserts, but that's not really a problem.
I stayed with the standard swing-arm, as I didn't want the rear end being too light. Nice to have a bit of weight back there.
I'd have loved to have hooked up data-logging and done some back-to-back comparisons with a stock 1299. Troy Corser rode the bike and loved it, especially when he found he could turn off the traction control...

Total build, including the bike, was a LOT cheaper than the Superleggera from Ducati, too. With the Akrapovic system, power was 203 cv on a dyno, but for the rider, that was plenty fast. Weight without fuel was 158kg. It could go even lower with titanium axles and other lightweight engine mods, but that really wasn't the issue. A diet for the rider would have been more effective..

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Another sweet bike in this thread. Thanks for sharing your trackbike build.

kismetcapitan said:

This.

I wouldn't even trust Ducati Corse with the swingarm and airbox, even if they made each one by hand. Can they make one strong enough? Yes. But what led to the end of Preziosi's career was that they couldn't get control over the flex of either piece anywhere close to where the Japanese were, with their aluminum parts hand-welded together, sometimes in many pieces to fine-tune flex.

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The CF frame was never the problem; even with the 14.1 and 14.2 Desmos with the AL beam frame the same problems persisted. Engine size and chassis layout were the more likely culprit witch wasn't corrected until Gigi redesigned everything.