Quickshifter for 2013 1199 (want downshift capability)

Sheikh said:

I've always been suspicious of the strain gauges' sensitivity, and the possibility of a pendulum action of the shifter lever causing a false shift input with resultant throttle cut or blip. But, I hammer the shifter, per the advice form Ducati that this is a RACE transmission, and requires a bit of strong input to work properly. Every time it's popped out of gear has been because I ..... footed around with the shift lever.

I'm not sure how you are doing your downshifts. . .are you waiting a moment between shifts or just hammering through them in quick succession? I found that if I gave the transmission and bike a chance to settle into the next gear things tended to not do unseemly things like pop back into the last gear.

Also, to aid in my downshifts, I run the EBC at it's highest setting, to reduce the chance that the reverse torque of engine braking causes the transmission to not downshift properly. The harder you push on those locking cogs, the more of a chance it didn't quite get into the next gear completely and something might pop out of it's own accord. I also went into the Tune adjustments and softened the mid-high rpm off-throttle settings to allow for less engine braking at mid-upper rpm. IMO this helps the transmission finish it's shifts a bit better than hard slamming things as shown in the stock setting I have included. The first screenshot is the stock throttle settings in 3rd gear, and the 2nd is the ones I use to soften the engine braking. You have to use more rear brake, but the hit to the chassis and tire are softened by having the greater throttle openings I have dialed in.

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Electronut said:

Good points. I minimized the setting on the EBC actually to keep a better pace when downshifting. However your points make good sense.

How did you know the amount to change for the throttle values in the TuneEdit proggy? I see on the charts how you smoothed it out. Did you have on the dyno and manipulated a little at a time as you ran the bike?

I never used TuneEdit quite honestly. Certainly interesting if you ran it.live on the dyno like.we do with Tuneboy Trim. I only use Tuneboy Trim app to dynotune and adjust A/F Ratios to both cylinders which I still need to properly do for my bike. I settled on using the Full Akro V.6 trim with my full system Termi exhaust. Looked rather good on the dyno so stuck to running it. Push 175 RWHP. Then of course FlashMitsubishi to load into the ECU.

We had a technical problem keeping the WB-01 wirelessly connected to the laptop when we were running on the dyno. I have a different laptop now so hoping goes better the next time.

What's really cool,which I just started playing with at my track day this last weekend, are the linear power modes. Unreal the power delivery when using. Especially the 3rd one when you have WOT at 70% throttle.

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Sheikh said:

Actually, I just said. . . hmmmm. . .lets see how THIS works. . .then adjusted things accordingly after test rides. Pick one gear and see how the off-throttle feels throughout the rev range, then adjust until it just feels right. Copy that field to the others and do some test rides with decel and downshifts, noting where in the rpm band things are taking place, then adjust the numbers, reload, and try again. I got it very close in 3-4 adjustments. 1st and 2nd gear are different from 3-6, with 1st limited to 65% on top and 2nd to 85% on top to keep the front wheel on the ground. But all of the throttle maps have similar transitions, though 1st is flatter, but still slightly higher than stock to make it easier to use the throttle at low power settings.

So, basically trial and error until I found the sweet spot. My 1199 also has a very well tuned fuel curve and great exhaust, all in the interest of getting rid of that mid-range power dip. Power and torque are up across the entire RPM band as well. I just spent a lot of time and many, many test rides to get things dialed in. No dyno involved until I had the AF ratios dialed in and the exhaust and throttle curves properly adjusted.

Right now I'm looking at 182 RWhp @ 10,500 rpm and about 92-93 lbs-ft of torque at 9250-9500 rpm, as seen on two different dyno's. I shift at 10700-10800 and let the torque do it's job, but the bike is not ridden on the track.

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Electronut said:

Very interesting you tackled all without a dyno and then put on the dyno to reconfirm. You must have spent a ton of time with all of that. Risky on the A/F value changes too because you are really only going by feel and your ear which is impressive. You can really mess up the motor if you go too lean.

I still have the midrange dip going on at the moment so interesting you mentioned. That's what I need to remove as it's bogging down my drives down the straights on track.

I'm going to definitely see about changing the EBC setting and play around a little with the throttle values. I can use your values for benchmarks and guidance in fact and see where I end up. I hope I can resolve this shifting issue. I was thinking could be something like the gear arm selector in the trans. I upgraded mine on my Diavel but that bike was always known for not being able to find neutral and 5th to 6th gear change issies. Never an issue on the 1199 but maybe I just need to bang into the downshift gears harder.

Can you also add what your values are in your BlipH and BlipL tables? Would like to see what you got going there.

Thank you!

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Sheikh said:

I hooked up some AF sensors and a dual Innovate system, then monitored the AF as it ran through the roll-on tune. had the laptop on a support on top of the gas tank, riding up and down the roads and recording how things looked, then making adjustments. The fun part was the full power pulls in 4th gear, from 3,000-11,000 rpm at full throttle, doing 3-4 runs while recording the AF readings on a rolling graph, then adjusting the cell values to richen and lean the mixture, then rinse and repeat about 10 times until the 80% and 100% fuel curves were almost perfectly flat lined between 12.6-13:1 AF ratio. Below 50% I let the roll-on auto adjust do it's thing.

Here's my blipper settings:

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Electronut said:

Got you. OK so you didn't do it blind. Makes total sense now. You just didn't have the dyno was all and ran up and down the street as you made.your changes. That's still hard to do because with every pass you have to save settings, refresh the ECU with that new trim, and disconnect the laptop. Alot a credit you get there.

Explain the 2 sets of blip table values please? You should only have a single BlipH and Blip L if running a single trim file which appears you are. Those values on your BlipH I noticed are very low compared to Wayne's standard values he integrated into all the V6 tune files. You think those adjustments would also help for avoiding my bike to jump out of gear? Those values you use make the gear change transition tighter.

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Sheikh said:

The blip duration actually depends on how heavy your foot is. A light quick ... can occur before the time of the blip transpires, or a heavy long pull can go until the blip length limit overrides your foot. It's a matter of feel and practice to become consistent. I'm hard on the lever, so things occur quickly. The Blip Len is how long the blip occurs, and the blip H is how much % of throttle is given .. the other two are Throttle Position HOLD height and Throttle position HOLD length, for how long the blip holds the throttle open, and how high AFTER the shift is made. Once the downshift is made, the program holds the throttle open a certain amount, and for a certain length of time, to smooth the transition into the next gear and not just fall on it's face instantly. I increased the closed-throttle values at 0 and 4% throttle in the Tune mapping, to soften this period as well, to help not shock the chassis and tires during the down shift. It makes the down blip a lot smoother and helps tire slippage while decelerating. You're already on the brakes. Slamming the tires with a downshift just makes things slide and lose traction, and actually hurts your braking, so you alleviate that shock by keeping the throttle open a bit during the downshift, and then for a little longer so things happen more smoothly.

As for the bike jumping out of gear... it jumps out because it's not FULLY into the next gear./ Once the dogs lock, it's not changing because it's under load. if you skimp on getting it fully into gear, it gives it a chance to jump out again.

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Sheikh said:

The blip duration actually depends on how heavy your foot is. A light quick ... can occur before the time of the blip transpires, or a heavy long pull can go until the blip length limit overrides your foot. It's a matter of feel and practice to become consistent. I'm hard on the lever, so things occur quickly. The Blip Len is how long the blip occurs, and the blip H is how much % of throttle is given .. the other two are Throttle Position HOLD height and Throttle position HOLD length, for how long the blip holds the throttle open, and how high AFTER the shift is made. Once the downshift is made, the program holds the throttle open a certain amount, and for a certain length of time, to smooth the transition into the next gear and not just fall on it's face instantly. I increased the closed-throttle values at 0 and 4% throttle in the Tune mapping, to soften this period as well, to help not shock the chassis and tires during the down shift. It makes the down blip a lot smoother and helps tire slippage while decelerating. You're already on the brakes. Slamming the tires with a downshift just makes things slide and lose traction, and actually hurts your braking, so you alleviate that shock by keeping the throttle open a bit during the downshift, and then for a little longer so things happen more smoothly.

As for the bike jumping out of gear... it jumps out because it's not FULLY into the next gear./ Once the dogs lock, it's not changing because it's under load. if you skimp on getting it fully into gear, it gives it a chance to jump out again.

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Electronut said:

Man this is awesome info and details. I really appreciate. I didn't realize the last 2 tables you adjusted were TPH. That's why you had 4 total and see that now.

As far as EBC, that's why I lowered to the lowest setting. I want to avoid rear wheel lockup and extra stress on tires and prevent too much drag when I downshift and make as smooth as possible. More important when you are on track.

I am going to try your Blip and TPH table settings into my trim and try. See how it feels and how bike reacts. Based on how that goes,I'll see if I need to use TuneEdit to lower the throttle positions on the tune for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears.

What are your slider settings set up at for Blip pressure, kill, etc in the configuration menu? That's all I think that remains on this.

I really appreciate all the detail you provided. You are the only other person on the user purchase side that I have been able to converse with that had similar knowledge on using TB. The skillset out there on using it is foreign to pretty much everyone. Unfortunately this shifting didn't work right out of the box with my 1199 so I hope this tweaking will resolve my shifting problem.

I will keep you posted as I continue to try and tackle this.

Jay

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Sheikh said:

I can't get to a view of the sliders unless I hook up to the bike. One thing to consider is that each rider, and the strain gauge characteristics they are using, is different and should be dialed in for each situation. So, adjust to your preference, though I will say that the kill time and kill pressure are slightly to the right of the centering mark and the blip pressure is directly on the centering reference mark. My EBC is set to 3, because this provides the greatest 'intervention' to help reduce wheel lockup.

One thing to consider.. are you trying to use the downshifting as a braking tool? If so, this is an incorrect technique because engine braking is inconsistent, and multiple down shifts will disrupt the suspension multiple times. I see riders doing this and it drives me a bit bonkers. Downshifting should be used to keep the engine in it's desired powerband as you lose speed, so that when you stop braking you are ready for steady state smoothly applied power through a corner followed by accelerating at maximum available power in the meat of the engines powerband. The auto blipper helps the engine do this by holding the throttle slightly open after each downshift, so getting it dialed in is crucial. People not using an auto blipper do this balancing act with their right hand. Even so, disrupting the rear tires grip with repeated downshifts actually lengthens the braking distance because it's not a smooth process using the easily controlled rear brake. Yes, engine braking assists the rear brake, but that's not the reason for down shifting. This is why I've softened the downshift engine braking by raising the throttle percentage in the 0-6% throttle range at higher rpm. I have less engine braking, so the bike almost 'coasts' compared to having the stock throttle settings, but my rear brake is not overloaded by the engine being on or off throttle so I have a better control of the rear tire when decelerating. I'd guestimate I have it set up to remove about 50-60% of the engine braking affect, on top of what the EBC is already doing, and the result is very smooth and controllable.

Hope this all helps. BTW this same set of circumstances applies to 4-wheel vehicles too, which is where I learned it. Double clutching a down shift to rev match and keep the car balanced in a corner is just as necessary.

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Sheikh said:

I can't get to a view of the sliders unless I hook up to the bike. One thing to consider is that each rider, and the strain gauge characteristics they are using, is different and should be dialed in for each situation. So, adjust to your preference, though I will say that the kill time and kill pressure are slightly to the right of the centering mark and the blip pressure is directly on the centering reference mark. My EBC is set to 3, because this provides the greatest 'intervention' to help reduce wheel lockup.

One thing to consider.. are you trying to use the downshifting as a braking tool? If so, this is an incorrect technique because engine braking is inconsistent, and multiple down shifts will disrupt the suspension multiple times. I see riders doing this and it drives me a bit bonkers. Downshifting should be used to keep the engine in it's desired powerband as you lose speed, so that when you stop braking you are ready for steady state smoothly applied power through a corner followed by accelerating at maximum available power in the meat of the engines powerband. The auto blipper helps the engine do this by holding the throttle slightly open after each downshift, so getting it dialed in is crucial. People not using an auto blipper do this balancing act with their right hand. Even so, disrupting the rear tires grip with repeated downshifts actually lengthens the braking distance because it's not a smooth process using the easily controlled rear brake. Yes, engine braking assists the rear brake, but that's not the reason for down shifting. This is why I've softened the downshift engine braking by raising the throttle percentage in the 0-6% throttle range at higher rpm. I have less engine braking, so the bike almost 'coasts' compared to having the stock throttle settings, but my rear brake is not overloaded by the engine being on or off throttle so I have a better control of the rear tire when decelerating. I'd guestimate I have it set up to remove about 50-60% of the engine braking affect, on top of what the EBC is already doing, and the result is very smooth and controllable.

Hope this all helps. BTW this same set of circumstances applies to 4-wheel vehicles too, which is where I learned it. Double clutching a down shift to rev match and keep the car balanced in a corner is just as necessary.

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Sheikh said:

I just remembered something from when I was setting up my aftermarket rear sets that is worth looking into. When I went from standard shift to GP shift, the angle of my left foot dictated that the lever end be angled down pretty well so that I didn't have to monkey around a lot to get my toe both on top of and under the end. What I didn't realize, though, was when I shifted up by pushing down on the shifter, behind the ball bearing pivot point there was an interference between the lever arm and the mounting frame for the shifter. The first time I rode it like that, after swapping between shifting styles, I could not shift up into 2-6th gears, though it would go into neutral. It took a few minutes to find the area of the bind, so I ground away some material and voila!!! it shifted properly. But, I had to make sure I removed enough material to ensure that the lever went well past the 'into gear' position, because flex and slop and other things could prevent it going completely into gear if it didn't have enough extra clearance.

Since the GP shift moves the lever end Up, I'd advise carefully going over every possible interference point in the shift mechanism and make sure there is at least 1/8' / 3mm of clearance between any parts as they move throughout their full range. It's possible to be getting into gear, but still hit a bind at the same time, and occasionally not get 100% engagement movement. It works okay, until that one time it doesn't and then it pops out of gear and scares you. When things heat up on the track it could change the clearances just that little bit, which would result in a 75% shift that then decides to pop out of gear.

Just something else worth look at and double checking.

Took the 1199 out for a ride today, banging up and down the gears to my hearts content to see if there are any foibles that I might want to mention, but nope..100% consistent and a pleasure to play with. Worst part was that I also have a 2003 Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom that I changed over to GP shift because I got so used to doing it on the Ducati I kept forgetting which direction to move my foot. Was getting so many 2nd gear take-offs that I finally just switched the V-Strom over to GP shift as well. BUT. . then, the V-Strom isn't quick shifted or blipped, so I do everything manually. . .which means when I ride the Ducati, I have to remind myself . .'Oh YEAH...Quickshifter and blipper'.. usually after doing 2-3 upshifts pulling in the clutch, much to my chagrin. Things work much better after I relearn proper shifting.

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Electronut said:

I appreciate your quick response Seth. If you don't mind me asking, what's your BlipH and BlipL table values and what does your slider configurations look like for blip pressures, kills etc. Maybe take a screen shot of what you have for each to make simple? I'm running the FullAkro V.6 trim and I downloaded from Wayne where he added couple version customized BlipH and BlipL values on that trim and I had flashed and played with different ones while at the track this past Sunday.

Do you track your bike? I assume you watched my video. Strange right? I'm at a loss.

Next step is to do exactly what you suggested after speaking with a close bud that runs a Ducati Service dept. Have to see if we can pinpoint the problem. Planning to get it on the dyno and see if we can replicate and narrow down the problem.

Most occurrences are after a downshift. So what I was going to try first was clutch it on the downshifts but still use the QS up. If still acted up then would disconnect the TB QS altogether and have to try to see if would occur using the clutch for up and down. That's very hard for me to do on track though. I need the QS to run race pace. It almost doesn't feel right at all to use the clutch. Throws me completely off. I could throw the OEM one back on too but then still don't have downshift but would be interesting to see if all upshifts work correctly. I'll see after tinkering with the TB QS first.

Also I leave the OEM QS connector white 2 prong lead exposed and tucked dangling behind fairing. No cover or anything over it. Does that matter you think?

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Seth Vo said:

Jay - Sorry for the delay but I've been traveling. Looks like @Sheikh has given you information to try to test this first at make sure all your setting match what's shown. Only after you've tested all of this could also try swapping to stock to make sure it's not something else going on...If none of that works you can DM me and when I'm back I'll try to pull my tables and share. Seth

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Sheikh said:

FWIW. I adjust the Engine throttle blade positions for what I felt was a proper decel 'feel' in each gear..THEN adjusted the Blip and Hold characteristics. The TP will really influence the blip because you are starting at a slightly higher throttle position than what is in the 'normal' tables.

Hey Seth, ltns. hope you're doing well.

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Electronut said:

Brad from Tuneboy reply to me:

Hey Jay,

Your tune file is pretty old. I am getting Wayne to transfer all your data to the current version and will email you soon. The latest tunes have provisions in the code to help with throttle blipping, so if the gear lever was pressed to change down gears only, some bikes would lurch forward when blipping ( would blip perfectly in some gears and RPM not so good in others) but Wayne is adamant it will not make a bike change gear by itself. However, we all might be explaining and understanding symptoms differently.

The code change involves adding gearbox ratios to the blip check, so it knows what gear you are in and will not allow the bike to over-rev and cause lurching forward.



There is no other changes in the software other than blip changes

I really hope this resolves your issue.

Cheers

Brad

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Sheikh said:

Nice to know they are finally addressing the 'surge forward' problem. Currently they are still using the same Tune Map I got from them over 3 years ago... at least the Name of the map is the same. There is supposed to be a 6_8 version, they sent it to me a while ago, but it's not listed in the DL from the Website. Time will tell, I suppose.

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