Ride height with -2 and -4 swingarm pivot?

bjorgens · Feb 2, 2015

Looking for guidance from experienced racers, track riders on ride height with swingarm in -2 and/ or -4 configuration. Given the inherent variability in this measurement, am mostly interested in changes to suspension link length (center to center) and shock length (center to center). For reference, I'm running pirelli Superbike slicks and 15/41 gearing (+1 link over stock)

I'm assuming that when going to a flatter swingarm, I'll want to add in ride height to prevent the bike from steering like a truck, but honestly don't have a sense of how much, etc

All help appreciated
Thanks
B

mrjonnylee · Feb 3, 2015

I would love to hear more about this. There is lots of talk about the adjusted swing arm position on the new 1299. Is this something that can be addressed on the previous 1199R with the adjustable swing arm pivot? Speak up wise ones!

shakazulu12 · Feb 3, 2015

Yes, the 1199R features an adjustment that is the same as the 1299. It allows for -4, -2, stock (plus 4mm over the new 1299 setting) and +2.

Going to have to ask a smart guy for the rest of the adjustments you may wish to do though.

bjorgens · Feb 3, 2015

For the sake of clarification...I'm asking in the context of an existing 1199R...or in my particular case, an 1199S which has the R swingarm pivots installed)

shakazulu12 · Feb 3, 2015

bjorgens said:
For the sake of clarification...I'm asking in the context of an existing 1199R...or in my particular case, an 1199S which has the R swingarm pivots installed)

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. The existing (as in 2013-2014) 1199R has a 4 position adjustable swingarm pivot. The lowest position is the same as the new stock position on the 1299s.

should look like this

Focus_SBK_1199-R_MY2013_Pivot-Forcellone-Regolabile_634x357_[634x357].png

sean999r · Feb 3, 2015

I adjusted my R to -2 late in the summer but even very aggressive street riding I could only feel a small difference so will change to -4 in light of Ducati's changes along with the 24deg steering bushes. I m not worried about the geometry changes by this yet as I think the largest improvement will be installing the correct rear spring for my weight, I think all the above is of little relavence until the rear suspension starts working correctly

shakazulu12 · Feb 3, 2015

You are really doing this to play with slide characteristics and reduce shock pump on corner exits, as well as making the bike more managable on track. This isn't really going to manifest itself at street speeds.

slickwill · May 3, 2015

What are the proposed differences at the various settings? Less stability but better turning as you go lower, vice vera? Less grip on entry but more on exit? None of the above?

slickwill · May 3, 2015

Finally found the explanation that I was searching for.

jarelj · May 3, 2015

I'll let you know what I find out, I started with +2mm last week, and will be going to 0, then -2, and -4 in subsequent testing sessions to check the rear shock travel and rear wheel grip on corner exits. I think it's easiest to think of the rear being "stiffer" with a higher swingarm pivot position, and "softer" the lower you make it. It's a function of the chain angle, but most people can't really visualize chain anti-squat in any meaningful sense, so I think it's easier to think "stiffer" / "softer". If you have grip, stiffer will get more power to the ground, but if you don't have grip stiffer will make it spin. Conversely, the lower swingarm pivot will make the rear more compliant and enhance the grip, but with more squat in the rear some of the power is absorbed by the rear squatting and not used to give you drive.

wilkson · May 3, 2015

The best set up I have found on my bike is with the 24 degree head angle kit and swing arm set to -4 .

slickwill · May 3, 2015

Jarel based on your explanation and the Ducati explanation it seems that for average Joe (slick) or for street use the lowest setting would be preferable since maximizing grip would take preference over maximizing drive.

Pilot · May 3, 2015

bjorgens said:
Looking for guidance from experienced racers, track riders on ride height with swingarm in -2 and/ or -4 configuration. Given the inherent variability in this measurement, am mostly interested in changes to suspension link length (center to center) and shock length (center to center). For reference, I'm running pirelli Superbike slicks and 15/41 gearing (+1 link over stock)

I'm assuming that when going to a flatter swingarm, I'll want to add in ride height to prevent the bike from steering like a truck, but honestly don't have a sense of how much, etc

All help appreciated
Thanks
B

So, I've been experimenting with my bike, so I'll share my experience with you. I dropped the rear to -4 hoping to get more traction on corner exit. I also ordered a complete '15 R steering head kit and had to wait for it to come in.
The next track day showed much more compliance in the rear. I could really feel it working and I was happy with it. The downside I noticed immediately was the front end really dancing around due to the rear squatting more. I took out some fork rebound damping and put two turns of spring preload into the rear. I had Ducati Westlake verify the rear suspension geometry was still within spec and it was. The slight stiffening of the rear preload combined with the reduced rebound up front got the bike more in the ballpark and minimized the front skipping around so much on exit.
I had the steering head kit installed and headed back out to the track. The 24 degree front combined with the 5mm increase in wheelbase really makes the bike feel much more planted and well behaved. I highly recommend this setup for anyone who isn't happy with how their pre-2015 Panigale handles. It definitely does not handle like a truck!

bjorgens · May 3, 2015

Thanks for writing down your feedback...
Do you happen to have part numbers for the steering head kit?

B

Pilot · May 3, 2015

You're very welcome! I'll have to check my receipt and get back to you tomorrow...

leftcoast32 · May 4, 2015

Pilot said:
So, I've been experimenting with my bike, so I'll share my experience with you. I dropped the rear to -4 hoping to get more traction on corner exit. I also ordered a complete '15 R steering head kit and had to wait for it to come in.
The next track day showed much more compliance in the rear. I could really feel it working and I was happy with it. The downside I noticed immediately was the front end really dancing around due to the rear squatting more. I took out some fork rebound damping and put two turns of spring preload into the rear. I had Ducati Westlake verify the rear suspension geometry was still within spec and it was. The slight stiffening of the rear preload combined with the reduced rebound up front got the bike more in the ballpark and minimized the front skipping around so much on exit.
I had the steering head kit installed and headed back out to the track. The 24 degree front combined with the 5mm increase in wheelbase really makes the bike feel much more planted and well behaved. I highly recommend this setup for anyone who isn't happy with how their pre-2015 Panigale handles. It definitely does not handle like a truck!

I was under the impression that the '14 "R" had the 24 degree steering head already.

bjorgens · May 4, 2015

Leftcoast...
I have a '13 S
I switched out the swingarm pivot plates to those of an R model

And yes, the '14 R comes with 24degree rake cups. The '15 R also adds 5mm forward offset

Pilot...
Thanks!
B

990Glen · May 4, 2015

My 15 R came delivered in -4 set up.
Its strange as the handbook says verbally that it should be in 0, but the accompanying
graphic shows it set to -4 ??
A few weeks away from the track yet to see how it feels when pushed a little bit.

jarelj · May 4, 2015

slickwill said:
Jarel based on your explanation and the Ducati explanation it seems that for average Joe (slick) or for street use the lowest setting would be preferable since maximizing grip would take preference over maximizing drive.

Yeah probably, especially since the new 1299 comes standard with that swingarm position. Who knows all of the considerations that the Ducati engineers went through to reach the conclusion that -4mm was better for most riders, but the bottom line is they changed all the bikes to that going forward so it's probably a good place to start. If you're talking about street riding, and you have the adjustable pivot on your bike, I don't think you could go wrong switching it to -4mm and just leaving it there. As mentioned by PILOT above, you might need to add a little more support to the rear spring to keep it from squatting too much and/or raising the ride height to compensate.

Pilot · May 4, 2015

leftcoast32 said:
I was under the impression that the '14 "R" had the 24 degree steering head already.

So, I've heard that the 2014 R came with a kit to mod the front to 24 degrees, I've heard that the bike came with 24 degree inserts from the factory stock, and I've heard that the bike comes with neither and is the same as the base and S at 24.5 degrees. I believe that there may be assumptions and it's possible that it changed at some point during production. Weird...

All I can remark about is my experience. I uncrated the bike personally with the Westlake guys. I had them set it up for the racetrack, utilizing all the performance pieces that came with the bike. I also requested all the take off parts be placed in the two cardboard boxes of extra stuff that comes with the bike. I've been through both of the boxes of extras and take offs numerous times and there are no steering bits inside at all. They may have released a kit to go with the bike at some point mid year possibly? My bike is an October 2013 build.

I do know the kit that I just installed for the '15 R geometry and wheelbase looks visibly different from the pieces that came out of my bike. The aluminum inserts are milled pieces instead of the cast pieces that you see on other Panigales.

Ride height with -2 and -4 swingarm pivot?

Help Support Ducati Forum:

bjorgens

mrjonnylee

shakazulu12

bjorgens

shakazulu12

sean999r

shakazulu12

slickwill

slickwill

Attachments

jarelj

wilkson

slickwill

Pilot

bjorgens

Pilot

leftcoast32

bjorgens

990Glen

jarelj

Pilot

Similar threads

Register CTA

Recent Discussions