Seeking opinions about oil smoke issue

ttkarp said:

You spent time crafting all THAT to insult a guy who asked if it's normal for his $25,000 to smoke when it starts?

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I've got to admit that I was venting some frustration at the time, whilst trying to help the poor fellow come to terms with reality.

It appears that this particular 1199 forum (for some reason over the last 6 months or more) is becoming an aid and a comfort to the whingers and whiners out there in 1199 world. And also a gathering point for them to express their displeasure.
I do note in my mind, a particular post by a certain individual that seemed to be a turning point for this forum in that regard.
We just have to work through it, and "endeavour to persevere".

Granted, some people have genuine concerns and gripes, but they really should go "up" the chain of command. Where they can be dealt with in a (hopefully) professional manner.

IMO, this last poor ignorant fellow is sadly just having a gripe.
This is despite the dealer being professional about it and going to considerable lengths to address his concerns, and then he says the end result is not acceptable.
I would like to know what the OP would find acceptable in his case?
Read his thread starting post and I think you'll see what I mean
He may well be better served with a ZX10R or an R1 or something

IMO, It's a reflection of a 1st world problem.

What kind of a world do we live in where someone can buy what is basically a highly developed and totally unique, world first race bike design, that's road registerable all over the world and available to the masses, and they have little to no idea of what they're actually dealing with???
What so ever.

The marketing men have a lot to answer for. IMO.
And we as consumers probably need to get some Viagra for our eyes, and have a good long hard look at ourselves

Brad said:

I've got to admit that I was venting some frustration at the time, whilst trying to help the poor fellow come to terms with reality.

It appears that this particular 1199 forum (for some reason over the last 6 months or more) is becoming an aid and a comfort to the whingers and whiners out there in 1199 world. And also a gathering point for them to express their displeasure.
I do note in my mind, a particular post by a certain individual that seemed to be a turning point for this forum in that regard.
We just have to work through it, and "endeavour to persevere".

Granted, some people have genuine concerns and gripes, but they really should go "up" the chain of command. Where they can be dealt with in a (hopefully) professional manner.

IMO, this last poor ignorant fellow is sadly just having a gripe.
This is despite the dealer being professional about it and going to considerable lengths to address his concerns, and then he says the end result is not acceptable.
I would like to know what the OP would find acceptable in his case?
Read his thread starting post and I think you'll see what I mean
He may well be better served with a ZX10R or an R1 or something

IMO, It's a reflection of a 1st world problem.

What kind of a world do we live in where someone can buy what is basically a highly developed and totally unique, world first race bike design, that's road registerable all over the world and available to the masses, and they have little to no idea of what they're actually dealing with???
What so ever.

The marketing men have a lot to answer for. IMO.
And we as consumers probably need to get some Viagra for our eyes, and have a good long hard look at ourselves

Click to expand...

As someone representative of those you describe as having little mechanical ability, yet buying one of these anyway, I just thought you were a bit harsh. (To clarify: Because I read about bikes so much, I find I know more about individual models than most of the salespersons I speak with....I just can't wrench to save my life). I perceived his question as "is my dealer screwing me over" with the "nothing to see here" attitude. I had/have the same question, but it doesn't bother me enough to really worry about it. Many members on here on the "does it smoke" threads report that there is absolutely zero smoke at any time. If it's "normal," wouldn't it be consistent with every bike? Anyway, I appreciate you clarifying your perspective. Cheers

Is there a full moon tonight? Please guys lets be civil to each other....

There is a distinct dividing line in motor cycleists, there are the old timers who like me grew up riding the early stuff ,Triumph,AJS,Norton,BSA, Velocette where you had to work on your bike, lash your valves, sync your points, adjust you clutch,adjust your brakes, fiddle with you carbs,accept oil leaks,adjust your mag timing and hold your mouth just right when you KICKED them into life.
Then there is the group that grew up on push button jap bikes,as seamless and reliable as an appliance, no leaks, no Quirks and foibles to ride around, just turn it on and go. 2 wheel appliances. No soul no personality.
Ducati does not fall in this category, they are more than to sum of their parts, the 1199
is nothing shot of amazing, when you consider that out of a normally aspirated 90 degree
twin they come from the factory putting out over 2 1/2 horsepower per cubic inch, and are reasonably steetable, lighter than anything else out there in the displacement class, and street legal.
Yes they have their share of gliches, and problems, some real and some imagined , but what other production bike is built with this much passion, art and technology? No they are not for everybody, some people might be better off with a big poster of one pinned to the ceiling over their bed.

Brad said:

someone can buy what is basically a highly developed and totally unique, world first race bike design, that's road registerable all over the world and available to the masses(

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Amen to that BRAAAP

ttkarp said:

As someone representative of those you describe as having little mechanical ability, yet buying one of these anyway, I just thought you were a bit harsh. (To clarify: Because I read about bikes so much, I find I know more about individual models than most of the salespersons I speak with....I just can't wrench to save my life). I perceived his question as "is my dealer screwing me over" with the "nothing to see here" attitude. I had/have the same question, but it doesn't bother me enough to really worry about it. Many members on here on the "does it smoke" threads report that there is absolutely zero smoke at any time. If it's "normal," wouldn't it be consistent with every bike? Anyway, I appreciate you clarifying your perspective. Cheers

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I fully understand the absolutely zero smoke at any time reports.

However from personal experience I too could be completely justified in making the same claim. Unless I'm "playing with the bike".

The problem is that I "know" that my machine blows smoke at all times "during the warm up period".
Even though it may not necessarily be visible, or able to be detected by sense of smell.
Allow me to explain further.
On occasion, blue oil smoke is visible under the lights during warm-up at night time, where there are high powered metal halide or LED overhead lighting systems in car parks.
This only happens under some climatic conditions, where there is no air movement and the air is getting colder keeping warm air from rising.
This traps the smoke at a low level in the car park.
There is a visible, very thin cloud of (blue) oil smoke which is obviously emanating from my machine that spreads and fills the entire car park area under the right conditions.

The phenomenon has never been evident when the bike is restarted after only sitting for a little while, and the engine is stiil quite warm/hot.
I personally continue to marvel at the phenomenon, and my nose is pretty good. It's just that it puffs smoke out in such a small quantity, but it can build up in a short period of time to become visible.

In summary.
Consider this.
One cannot rule out the possibility, that other machines have been suffering from the same condition.
It's just that the owners' haven't been fully aware of it due to their circumstances.
And so report no instances of smoking as a result.

Food for thought

centeroff said:

There is a distinct dividing line in motor cycleists, there are the old timers who like me grew up riding the early stuff ,Triumph,AJS,Norton,BSA, Velocette where you had to work on your bike, lash your valves, sync your points, adjust you clutch,adjust your brakes, fiddle with you carbs,accept oil leaks,adjust your mag timing and hold your mouth just right when you KICKED them into life.
Then there is the group that grew up on push button jap bikes,as seamless and reliable as an appliance, no leaks, no Quirks and foibles to ride around, just turn it on and go. 2 wheel appliances. No soul no personality.
Ducati does not fall in this category, they are more than to sum of their parts, the 1199
is nothing shot of amazing, when you consider that out of a normally aspirated 90 degree
twin they come from the factory putting out over 2 1/2 horsepower per cubic inch, and are reasonably steetable, lighter than anything else out there in the displacement class, and street legal.
Yes they have their share of gliches, and problems, some real and some imagined , but what other production bike is built with this much passion, art and technology? No they are not for everybody, some people might be better off with a big poster of one pinned to the ceiling over their bed.

Click to expand...

Maybe you're right

Here ya go.

Cold startup outside temp about 75degrees. No idea if this video will play correctly for ya'll, I disable Flash.

View My Video

NOLA

And"¦Brad, self deprecation in an attempt to parlay yourself out of being a clown doesn't work.

NOLA said:

Here ya go.

Cold startup outside temp about 75degrees. No idea if this video will play correctly for ya'll, I disable Flash.

View My Video

NOLA

And"¦Brad, self deprecation in an attempt to parlay yourself out of being a clown doesn't work.

Click to expand...

I've always been a clown NOLA.
That's just me and the way it's been all my life.

It's just that when I get serious.
One really ought to pay attention.

Thanks for posting the link

Thanks for your opinions. When I ride to work most the time I have to move the thing to an open part of the lot before the garage is locked at closing time. This move lasts for about a minute or so. Then when it's time to go home it blows smoke on start up. Because of this I blip the throttle to see what that does.
With 4,100 miles I have had to top off oil from the low line twice. How much oil that is I didn't make a note of.
As for breaking in I rode as hard as I could given our land of 45MPH city streets, and 65MPH freeways. The local race track has to observe a 94db noise ordinance, so naturally the thing was disqualified. Other issues like front fork replacement, faulty rear tire with bulges on the sidewalls, means a lot of down time, and not able to make time to travel to another race track to break it in that way. I'm on my 3rd rear shock.
So sure I'm whining. But bottom line is if more than, say a quarter of us, are having oil smoke issues then I can accept that it's the nature of the beast. Thanks for all your replies.

Thanks for expanding on the issues.
Sorry to hear of your troubles

I see that there is more to your story now, and I can understand why you'd be a bit whiney about it. Especially regarding the downtime.
Overall it would not instil confidence in the product. IMO.

I'm not sure, but it does seem as though the base model is somewhat prone to more than its fair share of suspension component problems.
It's been widely discussed on the forums that it would be a good place to start swapping them out for better components.
That's why I personally steered straight away from it and went for the S(even though I like the base wheels better), as the Ohlins are well proven components.

As far as the oil burning issue at start-up goes.
Yes what you're experiencing is completely typical for the 1199.
Especially the second cold start up smoking.
The dealer has done all, and a little bit more that can be done for you seeing as he's put it on the dyno as well

Can't you just push it to it's new position in the car park?
After all it's not like the 1199 is all that heavy to move around, and I personally wouldn't start any machine just for a short move if I could push it instead. As a matter of principal even.

keep a note of how much oil you're putting in to top up overall as a measured amount every time it gets to the bottom line. I think from memory it's about 225 ml from the bottom line to the top line (but I could be wrong).
Also accurate mileage records each time you top it up.
That way you can get an actual clear picture of your oil consumption.
But given the current circumstances at work if you are only moving it like you say. Then yes it will consume an abnormal amount of oil in a short time.(maybe as much as 2 ml each time it's restarted from the previous cold condition) and that adds up pretty quickly over time.
50 cold restarts @ 2 ml = 100 ml.

Not that I think it will help your situation, but what oil type, brand and grade are you using???
And stop playing with it
It won't get any better, serves no useful purpose and it will contribute greatly to your oil consumption/smoking when cold.


Thanks for your response

Like others have stated, mine smoked just like that when new. My dealership recommended breaking it in hard, which I did (and do for all bikes) and since 750 miles or so no smoke anytime.

At just under 5k miles now... Love this bike more and more every time I ride it!!! I love it so much that I've asked for an upgrade to an R for my upcoming 50th birthday! Woohoo...

Tom

Not to offend those that think "that is how it's designed, its a race bike" is the answer to all ailments, my bike did the exact same smoking for about the first 1500 miles, but now I'm at 3000 and it doesn't do it a ALL. So seems like yes, it's a problem. Maybe the mechanics here can confirm if it is still true, but my minimal knowledge on piston rings is that there used to be three and there is a small gap in each one to get them on, and those gaps need to be staggered or you can get oil leaking in. But one way or another oil is getting into the piston, which is an issue that seems for most of us does resolve itself upon breaking in. So still doing the same thing at this many miles would have my concerned. I'm never one to buy the, that's just how it is, argument, especially since it clealry is not how it is for everybody.

This is a fascinating topic. Some seem to smoke a bit, some a lot, and others like my 2012 Tricolore, not a single bit. Manufacturing parts and assembly variances perhaps, possibly break-in differences, or maybe oil differences? Who knows, but my guess would be in regards to this engine being extraordinarily sensitive to break-in procedures. I, as one of the aforementioned oldtimers, have had to deal with properly seating piston rings for decades, and the newer engines with their high-tech low-friction rings and very fine hone patterns on the cylinders, have made this a more difficult and demanding task than in the old days of very rough hones and iron rings. Add to this the new synthetic oils that are in some ways exacerbating the situation, and break-in has possibly become something best done at the factory level. I was at the Ducati factory this summer, and they "cold run" the engines after assembly, but they do not fire them up and run them through proper heat cycles under significant load. As an aside, my Porsche GT3RS throws a big cloud of oil smoke upon start up, and then runs perfectly clean. It is an accepted part of how the engine is supposed to operate (vacuum operated main seals) so you learn to live with it. The Panigale is an incredible machine, and indeed it would seem to qualify as a "race" engine considering the insane output, and even if mine smoked, I would still be a big fan. If it is not sucking so much oil as to jeopardize the engine, I would say live with it.

HarmonyJim said:

This is a fascinating topic. Some seem to smoke a bit, some a lot, and others like my 2012 Tricolore, not a single bit. Manufacturing parts and assembly variances perhaps, possibly break-in differences, or maybe oil differences? Who knows, but my guess would be in regards to this engine being extraordinarily sensitive to break-in procedures. I, as one of the aforementioned oldtimers, have had to deal with properly seating piston rings for decades, and the newer engines with their high-tech low-friction rings and very fine hone patterns on the cylinders, have made this a more difficult and demanding task than in the old days of very rough hones and iron rings. Add to this the new synthetic oils that are in some ways exacerbating the situation, and break-in has possibly become something best done at the factory level. I was at the Ducati factory this summer, and they "cold run" the engines after assembly, but they do not fire them up and run them through proper heat cycles under significant load. As an aside, my Porsche GT3RS throws a big cloud of oil smoke upon start up, and then runs perfectly clean. It is an accepted part of how the engine is supposed to operate (vacuum operated main seals) so you learn to live with it. The Panigale is an incredible machine, and indeed it would seem to qualify as a "race" engine considering the insane output, and even if mine smoked, I would still be a big fan. If it is not sucking so much oil as to jeopardize the engine, I would say live with it.

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I quite agree

As I have previously stated.
The smoking issues are not reflective nor does it impact upon the Superquadro engines' fitness for service or durability and longevity.

There are plenty of outstanding machines throughout history which have had some issues in the early stages of their lifespan.
A bit of smoking will not prevent this engine from achieving greatness in its own right. IMO.

Much of the issue is just oil seapage around the rings.

Many factors come into play.

Oil level, oil type.

Piston at top or bottom.

how well have the rings sealed/ broke in.



Either way it is what it is. Mine smokes just a hair sometimes, the longer it sits the more it will blow on morning start up only.


I did beat mine on break in.

Gas washing of the cylinders can occur under a rich cold start conditions on some engines washing the oil film off of the cylinder walls, causing momentary smoking, small block Chevys have been notorious for smoking on start up due to oil running down past the guide umbellas into the combustion chamber and burning off on start up. The old 421 Super Duty Pontiacs with loose fitting forged pistons were really bad smokers on start up, plus the piston rattled like a son of a bitch till they got heat in them.
I doen't know what the piston to wall clearance is on the 1199, but they run a very short slipper piston, and it sounds like they are rocking in the bore when I fire mine up cold. These new bikes run a tighter clearance with a forged piston than the engines of yesteryear because of the Nikasil coated aluminum bores that expand at a very similar rate as the pistons themselves.
I just know that my bike doesn't use any oil, and isn't smoking in my garage at start up.
But it never got babyed during the "break in" seating the rings on these high tech engines takes a load on them to get them to seal up

All the back-and-forthing aside, maybe we should look at the characteristics of this engine.

First, Nicasil (or whichever of the various patented nickel-silicon plating processes Ducati uses) is not the best oil-controlling material/surface. That goes to cast iron.
Second. the Panigale is the most super over-square engine on the street. (thus, the moniker 'Super Quadro')
Large bores can be troublesome to keep round when there are big thermal differences.
Attempting to keep high cylinder pressures on the street can be insane with an engine that makes upwards of 180 HP.
A local Ducati dealer brought one to me to do 10 WOT pulls on the dyno in order to re-seat the rings. This was done on recommendation of Ducati NA.

And third, I don't know that all of the calibrations are too rich at WOT (I haven't done a survey) but some of them are way too rich at WOT, and that washes the cylinder walls of oil and doesn't do your rings any good at all.

Way back in the 'good-old-days' BMW claimed that 1 qt./1000 miles was acceptable for their R100RS. That bike was a kinda big bore, cast-iron cylinder that was distorted from the cyl. head studs being very close to the bore.

Doug

I wanted to check this out before I posted any outrageous numbers, I found a forum discussion of the old (just post WWII) Wright R-3350. A double row air-cooled radial engine.
The guys that used to pilot the DC-9 said that the maintenance crew would replace an engine when the oil consumption reached 6 gallons/hour. 1/2-to-2 Gallons/hr was good.
And, since it was post war, that isn't at War Emergency Power.
These guys said that the oil reservoir was 56 gallons.

moperfserv said:

All the back-and-forthing aside, maybe we should look at the characteristics of this engine.

First, Nicasil (or whichever of the various patented nickel-silicon plating processes Ducati uses) is not the best oil-controlling material/surface. That goes to cast iron.
Second. the Panigale is the most super over-square engine on the street. (thus, the moniker 'Super Quadro')
Large bores can be troublesome to keep round when there are big thermal differences.
Attempting to keep high cylinder pressures on the street can be insane with an engine that makes upwards of 180 HP.
A local Ducati dealer brought one to me to do 10 WOT pulls on the dyno in order to re-seat the rings. This was done on recommendation of Ducati NA.

And third, I don't know that all of the calibrations are too rich at WOT (I haven't done a survey) but some of them are way too rich at WOT, and that washes the cylinder walls of oil and doesn't do your rings any good at all.

Way back in the 'good-old-days' BMW claimed that 1 qt./1000 miles was acceptable for their R100RS. That bike was a kinda big bore, cast-iron cylinder that was distorted from the cyl. head studs being very close to the bore.

Doug

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I'm not certain, but I think 1 liter per 1000 kms is deemed to be the cut off point as an industry standard for cars and bikes for as long as I can remember.
It's just not widely publicised, so the public is ignorant about the realities of oil consumption.
At the other end of it, there are people who seriously believe that their engine doesn't burn any oil.