Smoke from Exhaust

Too much fuel = black smoke.
White/bluish smoke = oil in the cylinder.

Ducati might not be listening to this forum, but guaranteed they're watching their own youtube channel. Someone should post a video response (I don't know how to or I would) on Ducati's 3d Engine video (and or comment something like, "this video doesn't describe why so many Panigales burn so much oil on startup"). A comment like that getting voted up 10 times (by us) would definitely get their attention!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITPC...DvjVQa1PpcFPEhB_fe63VkQhnrlRO1DVqThNALHNT4WI=

Anyone know how the crackcase vacuum pump works? Depending on where it exhuasts it may lead to a small amount of oil residue somewhere in system.

Guys, just chill out.

If its a design-feature, we're maybe gonna need a top up every couple months. Big deal, they sell oil in litre bottles, so I'll buy some and put it in nice Corse packaging.

We're talking about a road trim motor making in excess of 205 pretty genuine bhp with pipes.

You know what, I'll forgive it for liking a sip of oil on startup FFS.

I don't think anyone is freaking out too badly over this, but obviously it is a concern. If it's a design feature, then Ducati needs to come clean on exactly what is causing it. So far no one has provided an accurate explanation. New vehicle smoking upon startup is not by any means normal. (This ain't 1970!)

So I did some more research and spoke with a race-car engine builder/tuner who explained that the vacuum in the crankcase (there's a secondary oil pump in the crankcase that creates a vacuum to prevent parasitic compression losses as the pistons move down) and the pressure differences that result could cause a oil seeping past the seals upon startup (when there is no vacuum). So normal? No, but a sign of imminent doom? No.

Course only time will tell.

"Too much fuel = black smoke"

Is that if the engine is running already (i.e. running rich), whereas in this case it would be unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust valves/system just prior to/as the engine begins burning fuel? IDK, I haven't practiced ME in several years.

Maybe as the starter motor is cycling the engine, fuel is being passed through the exhaust system via the not fully closed exhaust valves, but there isn't enough airflow to exhaust it completely out of the system. Then when the engine does begin firing, that unburned fuel mixes with burned exhaust creating a situation where a bit of white smoke is expelled.

Also seems in the videos that show this condition, it's cold outside. Would be interested to know what the temps were when this happens. The "smoke" seems to dissipate fairly quickly, indicating it may be partially composed of steam as well. Again, not sure, would like to hear Ducati's explanation. But in any case, I'm not at all concerned.

Then maybe its not exactly a design feature, yet more like a design feature downside.
(note that this is just my hypothesis from internet research so CMIIW..)
the thing is that they put so many uncommon racing technology on this bike that 'we' (common people) don't understand whats normal or not.
regarding the vacuum pumps, i might add that by using vacuum pump the engineer could resort to using a lower tension piston ring.(perhaps this is our culprit) to gain extra hp from the low pressure crankcase and from the ring piston friction coefficient. (where else did you think they squeeze those extra 25HP from the same displacements as the predecessor)

source: Crankcase Vacuum Facts - Racing Engines & High Performance Oil Pumps

or...

it also might cause by cold temperature outside..
in this case the use of anti-freeze
well i don't know if dealer allowed to add some antifreeze to engine delivered in cold climate country, coz i live in the tropics..
(but it might be logical cause the demo bike seldom be started, and perhaps they dont want it to stall in front the customer)

in his thread Padi4 said that he hadn't see any smoke coming from his bike yet which make this even more interesting.. this could still mean it only affect random engine..LOL

anyway, perhaps there are still a lot of explanation out there that we could come with
but the official ducati explanation is what we're missing here..

What's crazy to me is that the couple of guys on here that have actually ridden the bike said there was no issue with smoke, yet there's a thread two pages long based off a couple youtube videos.

I know someone who works for Ducati that saw it first hand at some training a couple of days ago.

It definitely happens.

It's definitely smoke, not vapour.

As for why or how long (each start, and ... does it ever stop doing it?) ... *shrug*

from the MotoCorsa video comments section:

Ducati 1199 Panigale Technical Training - YouTube

One question going on on some of the Ducati boards is why the 1199 smokes on startup? You can clearly see it in several 1199 videos here on youtube, but so far no one has been able to provide a realistic / accurate explanation.


Straight from AJ Ralston - "The 1199 Panigale has an oil pump that creates a vacuum inside the crankcases in order to run more efficiently. The thing is, the vacuum isn't created on initial start up, so it will smoke just a little bit. It's completely natural."

Click to expand...

Cool.

Move along, nothing to see here

Straight from AJ Ralston - "The 1199 Panigale has an oil pump that creates a vacuum inside the crankcases in order to run more efficiently. The thing is, the vacuum isn't created on initial start up, so it will smoke just a little bit. It's completely natural."

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I'm sorry, this is not an accurate explanation. How does an oil pump create vacuum in the crank case?

It doesn't. I see on the ducati website that there is a vacuum pump that acts upon the oiling system:

The journals of the main bearings are lubricated by pressurised oil admitted through ducts inside the engine block. This serves to assure the efficient lubrication of the new crankshaft, followed by a rapid recovery of the oil thanks to a new Ducati component, a lobe pump that places the connecting rod compartment under vacuum, similar to the engines used for the MotoGP races. The pump is driven by gears built in a special high-strength techno-polymer and maintains the crankcase area below the pistons in controlled conditions of constant vacuum, thereby reducing the resistance during the downward travel and assuring an efficient recovery of lubricating oil in any condition of engine use.

Click to expand...

Anyway, even if it was an oil pump and it had momentary lag how does that equate to burning oil in the combustion chamber? Is it pumping oil into the intake? I don't see the connection.


I'm sure the smoke has to do with the decompression system:

At the extremity of the exhaust camshaft of each cylinder head is a centrifugal decompressor. On start-up, the device allows the profile of the cam opening lobe to be modified, resulting in a slight lift of the valve that discharges part of the mix contained in the combustion chamber during the engine's compression phase. This effect makes it possible to reduce the resistance to the motion of the piston in the compression phase. Once the engine is started, the increase in rpms and the relative centrifugal force modify the configuration of the device, cancelling the effect of the valve lift and bringing the engine back to normal operating conditions. This ingenious device facilitates the starting of the Superquadro engine without having to use a more powerful battery and a large starting motor, in turn making it possible to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle by 3.3 kg. The system further underlines the synergistic strength achieved by engineers and designers in the intense effort to reduce the bike's weight.

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Or maybe the air pump?:

After achieving the goal of improving engine "breathing", the Superquadro engineers turned their attention to the next challenge: to attain an engine calibration that optimally combines the high-performance delivery with regular operation achieved by reducing the cyclic dispersion of combustion. To obtain this, Ducati introduced a system of secondary air that completes oxidisation of the unburnt hydrocarbons, effectively reducing the levels of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide (CO). The system is controlled by an electronic valve commanded by the engine control unit and is activated according to the specific condition of engine operation. This valve makes it possible to let in the exhaust pipe of each cylinder head (in a position slightly downstream of the exhaust valve) a flow of clean air originating directly from the airbox. A second reed valve located in the engine head makes this flow unidirectional. The controlled inlet of oxygen makes it possible to complete the combustion of outgoing hot gases, eliminating eventual fractions of unburnt fuel which in certain conditions can reach the exhaust.

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If it is normal for this bike to burn oil on start-up how did they pass emissions? I'd bet that wouldn't pass the visual in CA. I know it wouldn't here.
If a car or bike shows any sign of visual smoke its gonna fail an emission test.

They even smoke just standing there...

Troy Bayliss told me there was no problem and I believe him, to much being made out of this as I am sure there is a good explanation.

What I don't understand is why so many have commented that it's a non-issue in the absence of a legitimate, verifiable explanation. I mean, no one is screaming that the engine is going to disintegrate, that fires are imminent, that everyone should cancel their order before holes are burned in the ozone. If so, then yeah, people need to be told to shut the fck up. In the meantime the rest of us are simply trying to figure out why a modern engine smokes at start up. I wouldn't think anyone who knows anything about engines needs to be told, but apparently the obvious needs to be stated:

Engines are NOT SUPPOSED TO SMOKE.

Not on startup, not on shut down, not under load, not idling, not while downshifting, not with a fox or in a box.

Seems like there could be legitimate reasons why there's a puff of smoke here and there (anti-freeze, exhaust manufacturing flux paste?) that isn't an indicator that something is wrong. No one is ruling out that possibility. But again, in the absence of a reason why a thing is doing something it isn't supposed to be doing it's entirely reasonable to wonder why.

And like bulldog said, there's no f'in way the good old boys at the EPA / CARB board would ever let a manufacturer produce a vehicle that burned oil as a design feature.

AntiHero said:

And like bulldog said, there's no f'in way the good old boys at the EPA / CARB board would ever let a manufacturer produce a vehicle that burned oil as a design feature.

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Sure they do. Every car powered by a rotary engine.

I know some of us think Ducati owe us an explanation for this.
But I'd suggest it isn't an issue, so they're not bothering.

I know it'd make us feel better about it, but in a month's time, people are going to start posting that it doesn't do it anymore, and the whole thing will be shut down.

littlejohn said:

Sure they do. Every car powered by a rotary engine.

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I had an RX7 back in the late 80's and it injected oil and antifreeze into the combustion chamber on start-up.
It did not smoke unless for some reason the car failed to start and the injection system stuck open for a bit.
Haha then my car looked like a fog machine if I could get it running
Happened about once a month after the 4th or 5th year of ownership.

My Aprilia RS250V used to smoke

Rhino said:

I know some of us think Ducati owe us an explanation for this.
But I'd suggest it isn't an issue, so they're not bothering.

I know it'd make us feel better about it, but in a month's time, people are going to start posting that it doesn't do it anymore, and the whole thing will be shut down.

Click to expand...

I don't know if they owe me an explanation but I'm not sure I want to own a bike that smokes like an old POS.

So I guess I'd like to know more before I take delivery.

flynbulldog said:

I had an RX7 back in the late 80's and it injected oil and antifreeze into the combustion chamber on start-up.
It did not smoke unless for some reason the car failed to start and the injection system stuck open for a bit.
Haha then my car looked like a fog machine if I could get it running
Happened about once a month after the 4th or 5th year of ownership.

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My reply was more or less in reference to AntiHero's comment.
But I know what you mean.. I recently got rid of my RX8 after 7yrs of ownership. The flooding issue became more regular over the last couple of years. And like you... the first time she started after a flood, visibility would be down to zero.. lol

I've been to the dealership and seen the Pani running in the flesh. Yes there was a bucket load of smoke, but I'm not concerned because it seemed like low compression smoke due to residual oil in the chambers and exhaust during manufacturing.
It definitely disappears once warmed up. The sales rep told me it was getting less and less each time he started it up for show n tell.
Needless to say, I've got an S on order and am not worried the least bit.

Some more news.....When they are new they blow smoke, but one of the bikes that has arrived in Australia has now done 200km to get prepared for the journo's and blows no smoke, so news is it goes around 50km.
So it seems as if it is nothing to worry about.

Also news is that this is a good bike to live with day in and day out and is no worries around the city.