Some track day prep questions

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I might have made a bit more effort with the track fairings than was strictly necessary...

Now I know why they say Ducati bolts are made of cheese... :oops::rolleyes:

GB Racing generator cover fitted (it said 10nm max torque - that didn't feel very tight compared to removing them but I've stuck to the recommendation).

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What tyres are people using for track days?
Q4 or Q5 or SC dot
Is it worth trying slicks?
No
Tyre warmers?
No
Anything else to consider?
Lots of ice inj a cooler,,, water, shade, air pump and accurate gauge, folding lounge chair, food. tools. I have a 30g plastic tub. I keep my leathers boots n gloves and pucks in. Plus anything else I need goes in there. I keep it simple, bike tub n me and im ready

You need to go out there and have fun, its one hell of a work out.

Ride clean lines

Maybe different fairings so I don’t trash the originals?
We do not set ourselves up for failure. so far all stock fairings and no protection. many claim sliders do more damage that protection. Stock seat works better than comfort seat.
 
Well I had a great time at Brno with Racing School Europe!

Obviously I was horribly slow but I’m not concerned about that. I’ve only been riding the bike for about six months or so on the road after a 25-year gap and set my expectations low (which turned out to be a very good thing). 🤣

The information and tips provided turned out to be hugely valuable and in the order taught. It was quite intense mentally. I was astonished by the difference vision made and then getting reference points and applying vision seemingly a couple of steps ahead helped enormously. I was aware of these things but I was quite astonished just how much difference it made.

The DDA data is very interesting to have. I thought I’d got some sense of the power and started feeling more comfortable with it but it turned out I was about 1,000rpm or so below peak power (at best) - more often probably 3,000rpm below it - not that it felt slow. Full throttle was achieved but never early enough or for long enough. That’s perfectly understandable I think. With everything there was to work on my instructor, who was excellent, had me just using engine braking, although I could see on video just how much earlier I was coming off the power than was necessary (I had felt this but video really shows what’s going on).

A few times I managed to feel the outside leg nicely locked in and it was amazing how much more relaxed it made me in the corners.

I seem to have picked up a load of other people’s tyres… obviously not quite on the right lines but it was improving each day.

Maximum lean was only 43 degrees, max speed only 220kph, max rpm only 12,500 but mostly a bit lower. Lots to work on but I’m feeling more confident on the bike and it started to feel less like I was a passenger.

Anyway, I want to do it again… 😁
 
Oh, and I put CNC Racing RPS rearsets on to replace the Rizoma - much more precise and a slightly longer footrest, which I like. I had loosed a nut on the Rizoma to raise the gear lever as it was too low to be comfortable and it wouldn’t tighten back up - some Nyloc thing that couldn’t even stand being loosened. Fitting the new rearsets I discovered that the dealer hadn’t bothered to change the quickshifter length when they changed it to reverse shift for me, hence it being too long and leaving the gear lever too low.

If you want a job done right…

I’m very happy with the change though. There’s far less play in the lever than the Rizoma have.
 
I had another go at Brno a couple of weeks ago. Definite improvements and 12 seconds better on the lap (still slow but it's only the second time on track with maybe 1,200km of road riding and nothing for the 25 years prior to that). It would have been better on the final lap based on the people I was finally overtaking but I put it in neutral into the last chicane as I lifted my foot on the left side to get it out of the way... muppet.

I tried trail braking and found it to give a lot of confidence going into the turns. I was still too careful getting on the throttle and not using it fully anywhere near enough, but braking later and carrying more corner speed. I seem to have a habit of turning in slightly late, although I'm generally still hitting the apex. I need to pay better attention to markers but particularly for turn-in and also getting on the throttle with some enthusiasm as soon as I see the exit. I think there's loads of easy time to be made at this stage just by using the available power a bit more enthusiastically. Lean angle increased but still not more than 48 degrees, although this was left and right so I don't seem to have a particular preference, although left turns still feel more natural. There's still maybe 1cm, maybe a little bit less, of rubber left on the edges so I know I can lay the bike down quite a lot more. Maximum speed only increased to 230kph and it should be a lot more on the main straight (I got about 2,000rpm higher this time though). Body position - as expected, I'm not getting off the bike anywhere near enough and particularly not with my head. I also need to use more throttle to maintain speed as I'm getting onto the throttle but not sufficiently to maintain speed - letting it drop slightly.

I know what to improve and how to do it and the good thing is that I've not given myself any scary moments - at all times it feels perfectly under control and I'm very aware that I'm well within any limits, which gives confidence to keep gradually improving. I found it interesting that the bike felt a lot happier through the corners when carrying more speed into and through them.

I found myself getting held up a lot in the corners, then people would hammer the throttle so I didn't get past, hammer the brakes and tip-toe around the corners. Eventually I managed to get some confidence to overtake, some on the throttle but mostly on the brakes. One guy finished his weekend early by putting the bike down on the straight about 150m before the corner entry... he had forced me wide in an earlier lap by charging up the inside and then sitting there as I was turning in.

The tyre looked a bit better than the previous time - not so much of other people’s rubber on it. If anyone wants to give any feedback based on the tyre then feel free to do so! I can't wait to get back on track...

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I had another go at Brno a couple of weeks ago. Definite improvements and 12 seconds better on the lap (still slow but it's only the second time on track with maybe 1,200km of road riding and nothing for the 25 years prior to that). It would have been better on the final lap based on the people I was finally overtaking but I put it in neutral into the last chicane as I lifted my foot on the left side to get it out of the way... muppet.

I tried trail braking and found it to give a lot of confidence going into the turns. I was still too careful getting on the throttle and not using it fully anywhere near enough, but braking later and carrying more corner speed. I seem to have a habit of turning in slightly late, although I'm generally still hitting the apex. I need to pay better attention to markers but particularly for turn-in and also getting on the throttle with some enthusiasm as soon as I see the exit. I think there's loads of easy time to be made at this stage just by using the available power a bit more enthusiastically. Lean angle increased but still not more than 48 degrees, although this was left and right so I don't seem to have a particular preference, although left turns still feel more natural. There's still maybe 1cm, maybe a little bit less, of rubber left on the edges so I know I can lay the bike down quite a lot more. Maximum speed only increased to 230kph and it should be a lot more on the main straight (I got about 2,000rpm higher this time though). Body position - as expected, I'm not getting off the bike anywhere near enough and particularly not with my head. I also need to use more throttle to maintain speed as I'm getting onto the throttle but not sufficiently to maintain speed - letting it drop slightly.

I know what to improve and how to do it and the good thing is that I've not given myself any scary moments - at all times it feels perfectly under control and I'm very aware that I'm well within any limits, which gives confidence to keep gradually improving. I found it interesting that the bike felt a lot happier through the corners when carrying more speed into and through them.

I found myself getting held up a lot in the corners, then people would hammer the throttle so I didn't get past, hammer the brakes and tip-toe around the corners. Eventually I managed to get some confidence to overtake, some on the throttle but mostly on the brakes. One guy finished his weekend early by putting the bike down on the straight about 150m before the corner entry... he had forced me wide in an earlier lap by charging up the inside and then sitting there as I was turning in.

The tyre looked a bit better than the previous time - not so much of other people’s rubber on it. If anyone wants to give any feedback based on the tyre then feel free to do so! I can't wait to get back on track...

View attachment 50836

After 20 track days and a good bit of coaching I’m only just now getting to the point where I’m not turning in just a bit too late. I’ve always turned in probably 3 to 5 feet later than I should, makes a HUGE difference when you get it right. More flow, less stop start to the corners.

Me and you are about the same in terms of riding experience when I started up a year and half ago…my only advice is to take a measured approach to getting faster, the only real high risk big injury crashes I’ve seen are guys just starting out at the track, that get some sessions in, then just decide come hell or high water I’m keeping up with that guy 20 seconds faster than me, and because they didn’t develop their reflexes and trained responses over time when they make an error it becomes a big high side tumbling rib and spine breaking and brain bleed tumble.

Instead ease into finding the traction limits, a tiny bit at a time, so when you do start finding the traction limits it’s controlled throughout, expected and planned for, that way you don’t have a panic response and go tumbling end over end. Pick one corner that’s low to medium speed and slowly ease into finding the traction limits on that one corner.

Also, a big ongoing thing for me is managing my vision, after a lifetime of training at combat sports and target archery, and hunting, and all sorts of activities that benefit from target fixation I’m now having to train my eyes to not target fixate, stay focused down track on nothing in particular, don’t dart the eyes from place to place, and use peripheral vision to spot markers, braking zones, turn in points etc. I’d say managing my vision is the number one thing slowing me down at this point, so focus on that early on in your development.
 
I found myself getting held up a lot in the corners, then people would hammer the throttle so I didn't get past, hammer the brakes and tip-toe around the corners. Eventually I managed to get some confidence to overtake, some on the throttle but mostly on the brakes. One guy finished his weekend early by putting the bike down on the straight about 150m before the corner entry... he had forced me wide in an earlier lap by charging up the inside and then sitting there as I was turning in.
Sounds like American squids are similar to European squids. Just have to work around and avoid them
 
After 20 track days and a good bit of coaching I’m only just now getting to the point where I’m not turning in just a bit too late. I’ve always turned in probably 3 to 5 feet later than I should, makes a HUGE difference when you get it right. More flow, less stop start to the corners.

Me and you are about the same in terms of riding experience when I started up a year and half ago…my only advice is to take a measured approach to getting faster, the only real high risk big injury crashes I’ve seen are guys just starting out at the track, that get some sessions in, then just decide come hell or high water I’m keeping up with that guy 20 seconds faster than me, and because they didn’t develop their reflexes and trained responses over time when they make an error it becomes a big high side tumbling rib and spine breaking and brain bleed tumble.

Instead ease into finding the traction limits, a tiny bit at a time, so when you do start finding the traction limits it’s controlled throughout, expected and planned for, that way you don’t have a panic response and go tumbling end over end. Pick one corner that’s low to medium speed and slowly ease into finding the traction limits on that one corner.

Also, a big ongoing thing for me is managing my vision, after a lifetime of training at combat sports and target archery, and hunting, and all sorts of activities that benefit from target fixation I’m now having to train my eyes to not target fixate, stay focused down track on nothing in particular, don’t dart the eyes from place to place, and use peripheral vision to spot markers, braking zones, turn in points etc. I’d say managing my vision is the number one thing slowing me down at this point, so focus on that early on in your development.

Thanks, great advice.

Vision was the biggest thing I took from the first track event - it makes such an immediate and obvious difference. I keep trying to work on this.

I am in no hurry whatsoever and certainly not going to take risks - I don't bounce as well at 53 years of age as I did when I was young. I was a professional golfer when I was very young and I apply the same approach to most things - focus on something specific and work on that, understand what you are trying to do and why it works, set small goals and repeat. I have no expectations and no ego - when someone overtakes me then it's of no consequence and I just focus on what I am trying to work on.

People blasting past on the straights and then holding me up into and through the bends is frustrating though and I've quite often been more cautious than necessary, by which I mean that I could have let them hammer on the brakes and simply gone past them into the bend, riding my own ride, rather than hanging back. I'm starting to get a feel for that though and also managed to start overtaking between corners. On the longer straights though, it's mentally challenging to hold the throttle fully open and leave it there - bloody warp drive. 🤣 I am not trying to hit specific lap times but instead focussing on technique and small, specific goals - much like in golf you would focus on each shot and the score will take care of itself.

The bike feels so capable that it gives me confidence to know I'm working so far within it's capabilities (as long as I don't get in it's way). As I gradually go faster the bike feels happier and less nervous, which I found fascinating. I have also paid for some tuition on both of the events I've done - very useful to have someone watching and to see video of what you are doing (rather than what you think you are doing).

I'm enjoying it immensely.
 
I had another go at Brno a couple of weeks ago. Definite improvements and 12 seconds better on the lap (still slow but it's only the second time on track with maybe 1,200km of road riding and nothing for the 25 years prior to that). It would have been better on the final lap based on the people I was finally overtaking but I put it in neutral into the last chicane as I lifted my foot on the left side to get it out of the way... muppet.

I tried trail braking and found it to give a lot of confidence going into the turns. I was still too careful getting on the throttle and not using it fully anywhere near enough, but braking later and carrying more corner speed. I seem to have a habit of turning in slightly late, although I'm generally still hitting the apex. I need to pay better attention to markers but particularly for turn-in and also getting on the throttle with some enthusiasm as soon as I see the exit. I think there's loads of easy time to be made at this stage just by using the available power a bit more enthusiastically. Lean angle increased but still not more than 48 degrees, although this was left and right so I don't seem to have a particular preference, although left turns still feel more natural. There's still maybe 1cm, maybe a little bit less, of rubber left on the edges so I know I can lay the bike down quite a lot more. Maximum speed only increased to 230kph and it should be a lot more on the main straight (I got about 2,000rpm higher this time though). Body position - as expected, I'm not getting off the bike anywhere near enough and particularly not with my head. I also need to use more throttle to maintain speed as I'm getting onto the throttle but not sufficiently to maintain speed - letting it drop slightly.

I know what to improve and how to do it and the good thing is that I've not given myself any scary moments - at all times it feels perfectly under control and I'm very aware that I'm well within any limits, which gives confidence to keep gradually improving. I found it interesting that the bike felt a lot happier through the corners when carrying more speed into and through them.

I found myself getting held up a lot in the corners, then people would hammer the throttle so I didn't get past, hammer the brakes and tip-toe around the corners. Eventually I managed to get some confidence to overtake, some on the throttle but mostly on the brakes. One guy finished his weekend early by putting the bike down on the straight about 150m before the corner entry... he had forced me wide in an earlier lap by charging up the inside and then sitting there as I was turning in.

The tyre looked a bit better than the previous time - not so much of other people’s rubber on it. If anyone wants to give any feedback based on the tyre then feel free to do so! I can't wait to get back on track...

View attachment 50836

Looks like you get them pretty hot and have pretty consistent heat which is good. You seem to be on the gas more on the right side, as the left side is getting cool as you go through corners and picking up a lot of stuff. Note the neutral texture on both edges. It doesn't go forward or back. Right edge you're more on the gas in the corners left side you look to be coasting through the corners more. Does that feel about right as a tendency?
Funny the V4 are opposite every other bike as they mount the engine backwards to create more neutral gyroscopic forces to counter wheels and flywheel etc. so they turn right easier than left. Every other bike on Earth turns left easier that right. Feels more confident right.
Looks like you hit the gas hardest late corner exit then are coasting well into turns. Not even engine braking hard. You pick up a lot of stuff center tire too.
This seems like it might be the traffic you were talking about.
Passing guys is one of the trickiest things to get, but once you get it, you keep it and keep getting better. You have to find places on the track you can get politely past to where they can see you, where you can claim the space. BEFORE the corners is a very good place, but down the straights is easiest.
That means either braking later or getting on the gas sooner. But you got to get confident with the track and really really understand the lines. Look up ahead and see who is moving where and strategize the traffic. Sometimes if it's nuts, I'll get off in pit lane, take 2 deep breaths wait for a big gap and go back out. Sometimes groups form and fight back-forth and it's not a valuable situation.
Like I said, when you know the lines and markers without thinking about it, when you know where you are on the track without thinking about it, you can get to learning other things like passing. Get the track map and make a lot of notes; watch onboard videos of the track IN RIDING POSITION. Make muscle memory. Get you head down and watch the videos looking up at the TV as if you are riding. You will imprint the track in the same place in your brain. Move with the rider. Lean left, lean right. Feel it. This is really important.
Notice how your instincts are engaged: Head down, you are in "hunting mode." Sitting up, chest collapsed, looking down, you may feel more passive. We spend WAY too much time looking down at our phones - this is crap for our emotional well being.
Chest down, squat, feet straight, arms up at shoulders, hands up, ready to fight, lead with your heart, stick it out. Head down, eyes up. Feel the GGGGRRRRRrrrrrr. Ready for anything.
Watch the onboard videos. This is a great exercise.
When you get back to the track, it will feel really normal. Feels like home, like certainty. That's what you want.
On track, stop thinking about it. That part of your brain is too slow. Think about breathing, think about what your hands are doing, and just ride. If you can do that you are going to make leaps of improvements. You already know what you have to do. Just do it.
 
Looks like you get them pretty hot and have pretty consistent heat which is good. You seem to be on the gas more on the right side, as the left side is getting cool as you go through corners and picking up a lot of stuff. Note the neutral texture on both edges. It doesn't go forward or back. Right edge you're more on the gas in the corners left side you look to be coasting through the corners more. Does that feel about right as a tendency?

Interesting analysis of the tyre!

This is from Brno, so all the chicanes are left-right. Most of the longer right turns can be double-apex. There’s one slow left turn. On the chicanes I’m taking the left and then accelerating to try and set up the exit on the right, which usually leads into a straight where you can accelerate quite hard. Turn one at Brno is a long right double-apex and I was concentrating on more maintenance throttle to feel like I was almost accelerating (I had been using too little throttle in that turn and still slowing down rather than maintaining the higher entry speed I was getting) and then there’s a long ‘straight’ (slight kink) uphill.

After two events (5.5 days on track) I can picture the track from memory, so it’s starting to embed itself and I know what’s coming, which has helped with being able to focus on markers. I realised I was turning in late every single time because I was hitting braking markers and then looking for the apex and turning in by feel, so I started doing what I should have been doing and using turn-in markers. As you get used to things it frees up time to focus on other things.

At the first event I didn’t use the brakes at all - they had me getting used to engine braking and turning (including pushing the bike wider in double-apex turns using the throttle). I started braking and using trail braking at the second event and it felt really good braking deep into the corner and enabled me to start leaving braking later than I expected. I’m still only needing to use a light touch as I’m not accelerating as hard as I need to but I’ve now got the confidence to do so at the next event as I know there will be no problem getting down to a corner speed that I can easily handle.

Bit by bit it’s starting to come together. To keep things in perspective though, I’ve seen telemetry for Brno showing 295kph on the main straight and I’ve done 230kph. 🤣
 
Nice! There is no replacing klms and track time in experience. Your eyes have to get used to the speed and seeing at those weird angles. Consistency, as in frequent track days, or a 2-3 days in a row helps enormously with your body getting into shape for speed. Remember the track goes all the way around in a circle. There is ALWAYS a way to go if you make a mistake. Look further ahead where you want to go. Keep your eyes out pretty far and look at holes in traffic NOT at obstacles. Looks PAST people you want to pass. Look at the line you will take. That helps a lot. You'll start to see super obvious moments to pass and you'll have it already in sight, it'll just happen more frequently. It starts to be no big deal. 1, 2, 3 you'll start going by people like flowing water.
In practice - I should have mentioned build that stance with standing on the balls of you feet like they are on your foot pegs. Feet parallel, and build it from there.
You'll also see if you are working too hard on your bike with weird little body positions. You might find more efficient movements and postures on the bike.
It all gets WAY easier, not harder. I was doing 2:35" around Mugello couldn't breathe I was working so hard. Could barely do 5 sessions. 2:10" was like no big deal doing 6 sessions a day, wanted more. If you're breathing out of your mouth like you're peddling a bicycle, you're working way to hard.
In a little competition, though, you definitely can get a work out.
What's a lot of work:
Anything small muscles are supporting your entire body weight is usually not good:
DON'T: Pushing on your bars while braking hard.
DO: Grab the tank with your legs, ALL THE WAY forward so you can't slide up at all. You don't really have to hang on. VARIATION TURNING: Set up braking into a turn. Slide up all the way and put the tank into the small of your thy tight against the tank so your full weight braking is your inner leg. Brake as hard as you can it should be almost no effort staying on the bike.

DON'T: Standing up on your toes in the saddle too much.
DO: Slide up and back in very small movements. Let the G-Forces sit you back down and plant you on the saddle. It's about timing. Get it right no effort. Try standing against the G-Forses, you'll be exhausted very quick.

DON'T: Holding your torso up with your arms.
DO: Use core muscles and wind. Keep head lowered and you won't ruin your neck in hard acceleration / deceleration.
Get your torso out into the wind going around corners. If you are doing it right, it’s almost no effort at all hanging off in corners.
 
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Nice! There is no replacing klms and track time in experience. Your eyes have to get used to the speed and seeing at those weird angles. Consistency, as in frequent track days, or a 2-3 days in a row helps enormously with your body getting into shape for speed. Remember the track goes all the way around in a circle. There is ALWAYS a way to go if you make a mistake. Look further ahead where you want to go. Keep your eyes out pretty far and look at holes in traffic NOT at obstacles. Looks PAST people you want to pass. Look at the line you will take. That helps a lot. You'll start to see super obvious moments to pass and you'll have it already in sight, it'll just happen more frequently. It starts to be no big deal. 1, 2, 3 you'll start going by people like flowing water.
In practice - I should have mentioned build that stance with standing on the balls of you feet like they are on your foot pegs. Feet parallel, and build it from there.
You'll also see if you are working too hard on your bike with weird little body positions. You might find more efficient movements and postures on the bike.
It all gets WAY easier, not harder. I was doing 2:35" around Mugello couldn't breathe I was working so hard. Could barely do 5 sessions. 2:10" was like no big deal doing 6 sessions a day, wanted more. If you're breathing out of your mouth like you're peddling a bicycle, you're working way to hard.
In a little competition, though, you definitely can get a work out.
What's a lot of work:
Anything small muscles are supporting your entire body weight is usually not good:
DON'T: Pushing on your bars while braking hard.
DO: Grab the tank with your legs, ALL THE WAY forward so you can't slide up at all. You don't really have to hang on. VARIATION TURNING: Set up braking into a turn. Slide up all the way and put the tank into the small of your thy tight against the tank so your full weight braking is your inner leg. Brake as hard as you can it should be almost no effort staying on the bike.

DON'T: Standing up on your toes in the saddle too much.
DO: Slide up and back in very small movements. Let the G-Forces sit you back down and plant you on the saddle. It's about timing. Get it right no effort. Try standing against the G-Forses, you'll be exhausted very quick.

DON'T: Holding your torso up with your arms.
DO: Use core muscles and wind. Keep head lowered and you won't ruin your neck in hard acceleration / deceleration.
Get your torso out into the wind going around corners. If you are doing it right, it’s almost no effort at all hanging off in corners.

Thanks, all good tips and much appreciated.

My first event was with the Troy Corser Racing School Europe team and they taught the things you mentioned, with the exception being the foot position tuition was different. I like the way they teach, which is feet more forward.

Braking felt a lot easier once I made sure I was off the bike with my thigh against the tank before braking and on a few occasions I felt locked in sufficiently with the outer leg in the turn that it almost felt like you could take your hands off the bars. I’d like to get that feeling all the time.
 

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