Stomp Grips

mrbrettbaker said:

I say heel guard just to explain direction, I have worn the paint off my swing arm too. I think I can help you, stay tuned, I want to do a little each day so it can be "digested". You have pretty good BP, but your inside shoulder is rolling forward,which restricts vision. I will post up a sure fire way to correct this in a few days
I mentioned njmp in April, I'll be in NC at NCBike the 21/22nd of this month if anyone wants to put in some work

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Thanks man!

I used to do a lot of days at Thunderbolt and Lightning with Team Promotion, I wonder if I ever saw you?

Differences

Steve B said:

Kaido, you might consider flogging your Rizoma's and trying some Sato's; they can go 15-25mm forward of OEM and 5-35mm up from same. Just about all the other aftermarket ones seem to only offer positions that are back and up of the stockers.

SATO RACING | Rear Sets - DUCATI 899 / 1199 Panigale

But definitely keep working on the BP; stay on the path you're on and you'll end up like this dude. F***ed for sure...

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Steve,

There is an important distinction to be recognized by the two primary riding styles. As Mrbretbakker suggests (and most every instructor I've ever met) teaches the squared of shoulder. Riders like Marquez, Noriuki Haga, Ben Spies, Colin Edwards to name just a few. The opposing style, and in my opinion one that way to many people try and emulate is the Doohan/Bayliss rotate. Mrbretbakker is correct in every respect that this rotate style complicates every other aspect of riding. The only favorable property of the rotate style is that you are already against the tank.

I for one have had enough groin smash to learn that BP is THE first step. Just my 2c.

Dynasty, maybe? I'm 54 yrs old shaved head (well, some of it didn't need shaving) and ride an 03 flat black and white r6 and my Pani. Been coaching with them 3.5 years and was a customer of theirs a year before that. Do a bunch of njmp, pocono and NYST days, and a few summit, VIR and NCBike days. Here is my R6

My goal is to emulate my bp to your pic!

The Avidmoto said:

My goal is to emulate my bp to your pic!

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We can do better than that! First, both of those pics are of me coaching and due to a slower pace. My BP is a bit lazy. Second, I think I've bought boatsfoe a few ortho surgeons. More importantly, I'm just a mediocre rider with decent BP, but in my own learning struggle,have figured out how to teach methods and drills to get us to do what we already know what we need to do.

Ok, lesson two. I told you to get off the tank, but how? We drill into you all the time to be "light on the bars". I regularly demonstrate no hands cornering. Besides the abrupt bar input at turn in (hence."banging the bars") the only other time it is except able to load the bars is under braking. Not only acceptable, it's needed. We can use this time to get our ..... where they need to be. Here you go. Front straight, hit your brake marker, sit up and in one motion, squeeze the brake and push straight back with both arms while getting the cheek off the seat on the side of the turn. DO NOT hang off the bike yet. First, while braking hard, having your weight up the center gives straighter braking. You want to stay up to strong arm during braking, and have the leverage (tall on bike) to help tip the bike in. Have your foot on the end of the peg, and ready to pivot. Now at your turn in marker, bang the bars, and at the same time spin that foot and knee out and swing your torso perpendicular to the inside of the turn. We will cover how to get your head down, chest on the tank and eyes down the track next. After that, corrections in the corner, then exit.
Again, I'm just a decent rider with OK BP, but I've found what works to actually get it all to work. Most important thing is riding at 60 or 70% while you practice this

mrbrettbaker said:

B, you may have the ergo issue on the Pani we've been discussing. Seat, stompgrip. Proper peg placement and in my case, adjustable clip ons so I could get behind the bars instead of over. I was running wide on the real fast turns because I didn't have the leverage to "bang the bars" as hard as a fast turn requires

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What change did you make to your bars specifically?

gobozo said:

Steve,

There is an important distinction to be recognized by the two primary riding styles. As Mrbretbakker suggests (and most every instructor I've ever met) teaches the squared of shoulder. Riders like Marquez, Noriuki Haga, Ben Spies, Colin Edwards to name just a few. The opposing style, and in my opinion one that way to many people try and emulate is the Doohan/Bayliss rotate. Mrbretbakker is correct in every respect that this rotate style complicates every other aspect of riding. The only favorable property of the rotate style is that you are already against the tank.

I for one have had enough groin smash to learn that BP is THE first step. Just my 2c.

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Was a joke; everyone knows TB has always ridden crossed-up! Even he noted his position at PI recently as being out of sorts with current practice. Heck, he looks like Larry Pegram does with his jacked-up hip. And as Brett noted, Doohan was the king of crossed-up. Schwantz wasn't bad at it either...

Heck, they should've just copied Paul Smart!

If you want great BP, just tattoo a shot of Lorenzo on the back of your eyelids and dream of riding like that; voila - you'll wake up an expert! (another joke, btw, but the dude does look mahvelous on a bike)

I wanted them forward more. It requires much more force to turn a bike doing 100mph than 50mph. I wanted to be behind the bars more, requiring getting them forward. Oem is not adjustable, so I bought woodcraft. Best thing about their clipons is they are 3 piece and you can swap out a broke clamp at the track without pulling the upper triple. Bad thing is if you move them like I did, it is a nightmare to limit the reservoirs and other parts from rubbing fairing or windshield while turning in the paddock. I say limit because I haven't been able to eliminate contact. Race bike, no biggy. Also, you have to buy the addition mount for the damper as the oem mounts to the clipon.

Norik Abe used to have a pretty crazy upper body positioning too.....

Brett under hard braking ie... end of the straight.... We should be totally gripping the tank between our knees though right ?? To take pressure off the bars\arms?

mrbrettbaker said:

Dynasty, maybe? I'm 54 yrs old shaved head (well, some of it didn't need shaving) and ride an 03 flat black and white r6 and my Pani. Been coaching with them 3.5 years and was a customer of theirs a year before that. Do a bunch of njmp, pocono and NYST days, and a few summit, VIR and NCBike days. Here is my R6

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No doubt I saw you out there then. Used to do a lot of days at njmp.

Brett under hard braking ie... end of the straight.... We should be totally gripping the tank between our knees though right ?? To take pressure off the bars\arms?[/QUOTE]

Great question. Many teach that, many do. I used to and don't anymore. Let me back up a just a little and explain why. First of all, charging in, braking hard, then slamming the bars hard to tip the bike quickly into a turn is the most streessful (see also scary) part or our ride. Having to try to squeeze the tank tight with my legs while doing all this cranks the stress level up, and makes for another harsh physical transition when I turn the bike in. another coach taught me that as soon as the bike is turned, we need to "ragdoll" and get very loose. As I said, I push back on the bars and sit up, straight arming the bars in the braking zone. This is a place you DON'T want to be light on the bars. If you are doing it well on a Duc, there is a good chance your rear tire is hovering off the ground. I keep my arms locked straight out , bang the bars, and as I transition my body in and down, (at same time I'm easing off the brake if trailbraking) I relax my arms.Having straightarmed this until my transition, I am left in the position on the seat that I want to be to get off the bike properly. Remember as I tip the bike in I will be countersteering the bars with an abrupt and deliberate input, while spinning my knee and dropping my torso and head to the inside. There is a moment where you do a whole bunch of work at the same time, then basically relax your entire upper body and let your legs start doing the work. If you can make squeezing the tank work and still get one cheek off the bike before the turn and like being light on the bars at that point by all means continue. I feel very stressed and like I'm working too hard doing that, and really want to be loading the bars hard as can be at that point. For me, it actually makes the turning transition easier mentally as like I said, at the moment I bang the bars, I am ending all the physical work and abrupt inputs, and switching to a state of clam and relaxed minor little inputs and corrections. I then enjoy those moments of relative calm, cuz soon we be hangin on to the rear slidin around exitting with an 1199

One of the (multiple) bits of info I took away from a CSS level one class years ago was the use of peripheral vision at initial turn in.

Example
When coming into braking markers, identify your turn in point, then make a deliberate physical pivot of your head up the track looking toward the apex. See the turn-in point with your peripheral vision and (as you say) "bang the bars"... initiate a very deliberate counter steering action to change direction. I remember Keith turning up the contrast pretty high on this point... And I'm paraphrasing..."this is not a smooth action... This is a abrupt, in some cases nearly violent action...

The basic premise was to get through the transition very quickly so that you could get back on throttle and restabilize the suspension. Attempting to be smooth could actually be counter productive because it stretched out the amount of time when the bike was in a compromised state of stability.

The value of deliberately turning your head before turn in is in (again as you note) virtually slowing things down because once the bike is on its side you already know where the apex is.

My point... As I try to think about this... In my case I believe I do a sort of sequential combination of stiff arming and gripping the tank with my legs. The latter is generally coincident with when I turn my head, slide a cheek off and look up track before the actual turn in point.

bjorgens said:

One of the (multiple) bits of info I took away from a CSS level one class years ago was the use of peripheral vision at initial turn in.

Example
When coming into braking markers, identify your turn in point, then make a deliberate physical pivot of your head up the track looking toward the apex. See the turn-in point with your peripheral vision and (as you say) "bang the bars"... initiate a very deliberate counter steering action to change direction. I remember Keith turning up the contrast pretty high on this point... And I'm paraphrasing..."this is not a smooth action... This is a abrupt, in some cases nearly violent action...

The basic premise was to get through the transition very quickly so that you could get back on throttle and restabilize the suspension. Attempting to be smooth could actually be counter productive because it stretched out the amount of time when the bike was in a compromised state of stability.

The value of deliberately turning your head before turn in is in (again as you note) virtually slowing things down because once the bike is on its side you already know where the apex is.

My point... As I try to think about this... In my case I believe I do a sort of sequential combination of stiff arming and gripping the tank with my legs. The latter is generally coincident with when I turn my head, slide a cheek off and look up track before the actual turn in point.

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Very well put. One of the things that suffers in my skills after coaching slower riders is the abruptness of my turn in. Riding at 50% pace has me turning in soft (see lazy) and when I go back out to "lay down blazin hot laps" I have to work to get back to pushing hard. This gets messed up sometimes when muscle memory has me braking deep and hard, then at turn in I'm soft and end up running wide.
Doing CSS, they don't prescribe to much trail braking. This makes it easier to squeeze the tank. If you are a deep trail braker, the point when you have to "let go" of the tank with your legs to follow the bike in it's tip in could have you sliding forward if still on the brakes hard. I am comfortable with slill having the bars loaded as long as I'm still squeezing a bunch of front brake. Many turns, especially fast ones, I'll chose to get me knee out when I get one cheek off, and i will dig my outside leg into the stompgrip, pushing my knee up into it. This gives me some extra grip for braking, but it also has that part locked in ahead of time and ready for mid turn, as this will be how I stay on the bike thru the turn. I'll address that later, but it will be the way you hang off the bike.

Thanks for all this, Brett. You're giving me content for my first track day this year. Ride easy and work on BP as I get back into it.

You make a good point and let me add to it. Ive said you have to slow down to make this work. One of the hardest things for me to accomplish is to get students to do this. We all go to the track because we love to go fast, and its why I made it to the Advanced group and still had poor BP. I found a solution. I chose 50% but you can divide as you want. Decide on a percentage of your day you are willing to "go to school" and ride your ass off the rest of the day. Some riders aren't fans of the first few sessions, not digging the mornings. This is a great time for them to ride at 60 or 70% and practice fundamentals and work on changes. Others are exhausted after lunch. Now that you are tired, slow down and do the same drills. What ever you choose, pick how many sessions you want to commit to and stick to it.

That's a good point, and what I tried to do last year. Last year was my first "full" year of track days, hitting 6 in all, and I committed beforehand to running novice the whole year. That had it's pluses and minuses - on one hand I didn't have guys blowing by me, but on the other, as I progressed, the one a year track day novices held me up. I suck at passing aggressively at this point, and I leave too much room in front of me when I'm behind a slower rider. There were times I was stuck behind a group, I'd hot pit looking for space, and a half lap later I'm stuck behind that same group again. So there were sessions I'd back off the pace and work on something as opposed to trying to find space on the track to go faster. Weather would play a factor too. One day we lost the morning to rain, so the first couple sessions in the afternoon I went easier working on foot position. Another day, it rained a little (and I mean a little, the track didn't even get wet) and everyone left, so they called open track for the last 2 hours. Those of us that stayed (maybe 6-8 in total) had a blast.

Ghost, my god man, you are a coaches dream!!!! Ride slow and learn? Hot pit instead of getting frustrated with traffic? Omg! You really need to plan a little vacation and venture out to a TPM day at Pocono, NYST or njmp! Paddock with me and I'll have you progressing huge in a weekend.

mrbrettbaker said:

Ghost, my god man, you are a coaches dream!!!! Ride slow and learn? Hot pit instead of getting frustrated with traffic? Omg! You really need to plan a little vacation and venture out to a TPM day at Pocono, NYST or njmp! Paddock with me and I'll have you progressing huge in a weekend.

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You know what, that's not out of the realm of possibility. I always thought NJMP was too far, but looking at it, it's about 9 hours or so. I've done ATL twice now, which is 8 hours or so for me, so an extra hour to try a new track is certainly not a bad deal. Knowing that when I get there I'll have someone to pit with/talk to/learn from is a huge added bonus.

Going to the track is both one of the best and worst things I've ever done. Best because I love it - absolutely love it. I love challenging myself to go faster.

But, it's also forced me to acknowledge that I have no real talent for this - I am not innately fast on a bike. I'm also bigger than I'd like to be at 240 (I'm working on that, but's hard to do right now as my wife and I are expecting, so we have a lot going on, none of which is conducive to eating right and getting exercise) and I have a crap right knee due to ACL replacement that doesn't bend well enough anymore to let me get off the bike on that side as much as I should.

Fortunately I'm old enough to discard any illusions I might have about myself, and that helps me to be more receptive to advice and criticism. I know I'll have to work at getting faster, and I'll listen to anyone who might have advice. I don't always take that advice - some things work for me, others don't. But I'll always listen.

ghostdog6 said:

You know what, that's not out of the realm of possibility. I always thought NJMP was too far, but looking at it, it's about 9 hours or so. I've done ATL twice now, which is 8 hours or so for me, so an extra hour to try a new track is certainly not a bad deal. Knowing that when I get there I'll have someone to pit with/talk to/learn from is a huge added bonus.

Going to the track is both one of the best and worst things I've ever done. Best because I love it - absolutely love it. I love challenging myself to go faster.

But, it's also forced me to acknowledge that I have no real talent for this - I am not innately fast on a bike. I'm also bigger than I'd like to be at 240 (I'm working on that, but's hard to do right now as my wife and I are expecting, so we have a lot going on, none of which is conducive to eating right and getting exercise) and I have a crap right knee due to ACL replacement that doesn't bend well enough anymore to let me get off the bike on that side as much as I should.

Fortunately I'm old enough to discard any illusions I might have about myself, and that helps me to be more receptive to advice and criticism. I know I'll have to work at getting faster, and I'll listen to anyone who might have advice. I don't always take that advice - some things work for me, others don't. But I'll always listen.

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Pm sent!