T-800 upmap for Arrow pipes

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Im not sure what your point is with that really.

if you have an exhaust leak, you should....

.....

fix the exhaust leak.

youre correct, it matters more in the conditions you said. But in your model, at part throttle, no fuel gets added. So you just run lean, unless you “check the tune, bruh”


you should data log your bike and see for sure when it crosses from closed to open loop. It might surprise you. I can be at over 50% throttle angle and still be in closed loop on mine, as one example.

if youre tuning on the edge, then that doesnt make for a good road bike. Like i said before, different priorities. that edge timed bike is also ...... when you put e-10 fuel in it and burst lean. But, if you tune the edge and trim your o2 sensor voltage, youll just end up adding a touch of fuel to open loop which isnt that big a deal.
 
KurtP said:
youre completely wrong. I could upregulate my fuel pressure with a booster and fuel trims would dial it right out. I could alter my temp sensor to read 20deg lower than actual and fuel trims would dial it right out. I could rewrite just my open loop fueling tables and if I dont adjust learning range, fuel trims will dial it right out.

this has all been definitively proven, and the data exists to show it. Youre a solid 20years behind what ecu’s are doing now.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Yes fuel trims can undo all of the changes you state. How does that relate to the bike running in open loop after a certain rpm and load? It DOES run in open loop. I have confirmed this with my wideband. Trims are usually restricted to around 10% fuel changes. Greater than 10% fuel changes are required for extreme elevation and temp changes. Trims therefore are not the tuning method responsible for temp or baro correction. And how is all of that 20yrs out of date.

Anyway, I can see we have very different opinions and there isn't much to gain by trying to convince each other otherwise.

In the end, do what you know. Both ways can result in a well running bike, in my opinion.

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk
 
KurtP said:
Im not sure what your point is with that really.

if you have an exhaust leak, you should....

.....

fix the exhaust leak.

So you just run lean, unless you “check the tune, bruh”
Click to expand...

You dont always know you have an exhaust leak and you have to have engine control strategies that don't burn the place down on minor issues, thus why fuel trims are restricted.

The 20year old view is that modern tuning strategies, including open loop tuning, result in constant requirement to retune. That hasn't been the case for quite a while.

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk
 
Arctic and Kurt
You both seem to know what your talking about and appear to have extensive experience but have differing opinions which makes me more confused.

I have a Jesters exhaust slip on and am assuming most slip ons would be pretty close to similar flows.

Specific questions
1 - Do I need to physically remove the O2 sensors if disconnecting them? I have heard they can be damaged for future use if not operating but still in?
2 - Given I have a 2018 model is the Brentune a good option and I just splurge and get their handheld diagnostic tool and load up myself?
3 - Would going to Tuneboy (they are close to me) for a dyno tune be a good option?


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STFT and LTFT stack. You can reach the load limit for short term fuel trim, the ecu will then modify LTFF at shut off. StFT is then zero’d. You ride again and the process repeats itself. Just because you hit the limit of STFT for a ride doesnt mean youve hit the limit for what the ecu will calibrate for in aggregate.

i said youre 20years behind because your initial assertion was that closed loop can only trim for small incremental changes like engine wear, and thats completely false.

post your log data of stft, ltft, show where you hit the ltft limit and show the conditions where your ecu went from closed loop to open loop. Im genuinely interested to see this. If these bikes seldom if ever use their closed loop as you say, than much of my argument is invalid. On bosch motronic, closed loop covers 50% of throttle angle and 2/3 of the rev range. I can be at 6k of 9 on my tach on the highway and still be closed loop, so it has to be adjusted. You just saw the data that it can be done with narrow bands.

ive said this multiple times before: i genuinely hope im wrong and i want you to prove me wrong. So just post the data and lets be done with it.
 
Last edited:
Motzarelli said:
Arctic and Kurt
You both seem to know what your talking about and appear to have extensive experience but have differing opinions which makes me more confused.

I have a Jesters exhaust slip on and am assuming most slip ons would be pretty close to similar flows.

Specific questions
1 - Do I need to physically remove the O2 sensors if disconnecting them? I have heard they can be damaged for future use if not operating but still in?
2 - Given I have a 2018 model is the Brentune a good option and I just splurge and get their handheld diagnostic tool and load up myself?
3 - Would going to Tuneboy (they are close to me) for a dyno tune be a good option?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

#1 correct. They will be damaged if not powered up and left in the exhaust stream.

#2 reviews and results are mixed with brentune which is compounded by how expensive they are. For $300 I can try upmap and throw it away if I don't like it. Significant investment in brentune.

#3 I would not recommend Tuneboy if doing it yourself right now. I however feel ANY dyno tune by a competent tuner (whoever you determine is competent out there) will be much better than any canned tune like upmap or brentune. If you can take the bike to brentune for a dynotune they are probably great. If you can take the bike to tuneboy for a dynotune, they are probably great.

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk
 
ArcticWhite said:
You dont always know you have an exhaust leak and you have to have engine control strategies that don't burn the place down on minor issues, thus why fuel trims are restricted.

The 20year old view is that modern tuning strategies, including open loop tuning, result in constant requirement to retune. That hasn't been the case for quite a while.

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

so you can feel a bike running lean but you cant feel an exhaust leak? Youre going to utilize a map with no o2 sensor check and just hope you never get a leak or check the bike over when you service it?

c’mon man. You can do better than that and youre smarter than that.
 
Motzarelli said:
Arctic and Kurt
You both seem to know what your talking about and appear to have extensive experience but have differing opinions which makes me more confused.

I have a Jesters exhaust slip on and am assuming most slip ons would be pretty close to similar flows.

Specific questions
1 - Do I need to physically remove the O2 sensors if disconnecting them? I have heard they can be damaged for future use if not operating but still in?
2 - Given I have a 2018 model is the Brentune a good option and I just splurge and get their handheld diagnostic tool and load up myself?
3 - Would going to Tuneboy (they are close to me) for a dyno tune be a good option?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

1 yes youll fry them otherwise and it will dial out your upmpap if you leave them wired and in.

2 i cant say for sure because ive never seen the data on their files. Im happy with my tune from them.

3 thats a personal choice. Arctic and i differ on opinion. I dont want an open loop only bike for road use for reasons ive said Without data showing me it can adjust the way i want it to. If you dont travel far, have consistent gas, trust the person building your map is competent it Should be fine. Worst case from what ive seen personally, it may just run rich at cruise. Arctic and i have differing opinions on this. I agree 100% with arctic that a custom tune beats a canned one.
 
ArcticWhite said:
#1 correct. They will be damaged if not powered up and left in the exhaust stream.

#2 reviews and results are mixed with brentune which is compounded by how expensive they are. For $300 I can try upmap and throw it away if I don't like it. Significant investment in brentune.

#3 I would not recommend Tuneboy if doing it yourself right now. I however feel ANY dyno tune by a competent tuner (whoever you determine is competent out there) will be much better than any canned tune like upmap or brentune. If you can take the bike to brentune for a dynotune they are probably great. If you can take the bike to tuneboy for a dynotune, they are probably great.

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

How quickly will they get damaged if I was to disconnect them and ride to test it?

Mine have been in but still connected since I did my T800 upmap tune.

I can disconnect and remove maybe this weekend. Are they easy to access and what type of bung do I need to block the hole?


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Motzarelli said:
How quickly will they get damaged if I was to disconnect them and ride to test it?

Mine have been in but still connected since I did my T800 upmap tune.

I can disconnect and remove maybe this weekend. Are they easy to access and what type of bung do I need to block the hole?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

a couple short rides shouldnt break them but dont leave them in.

ducatis use a 12mm sensor iirc, should be easy to find.
 
Motzarelli said:
Thanks


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Click to expand...

np. Good luck. Let us know how it feels. If youre close to a dyno, throw it up there and check afr’s at wot and a few other throttle angles. Should give you some more data.
 
KurtP said:
1 yes youll fry them otherwise and it will dial out your upmpap if you leave them wired and in.

2 i cant say for sure because ive never seen the data on their files. Im happy with my tune from them.

3 thats a personal choice. Arctic and i differ on opinion. I dont want an open loop only bike for road use for reasons ive said Without data showing me it can adjust the way i want it to. If you dont travel far, have consistent gas, trust the person building your map is competent it Should be fine. Worst case from what ive seen personally, it may just run rich at cruise. Arctic and i have differing opinions on this. I agree 100% with arctic that a custom tune beats a canned one.
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I have ridden my bike with the upmap for probably a couple of hundred Kms and the sensors connected. This sounds like I might have a problem?
If I disconnect then and ride will it sort it out?


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If you do disconnect them, flash to stock and then reflash the T800 again. You want the fresh flash in there with the fuel trims reset. Right now your fuel trims may have shifted due to your O2's still connected which could throw off the tune as it was developed with fixed fuel trims.

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ArcticWhite said:
If you do disconnect them, flash to stock and then reflash the T800 again. You want the fresh flash in there with the fuel trims reset. Right now your fuel trims may have shifted due to your O2's still connected which could throw off the tune as it was developed with fixed fuel trims.

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

100%. The o2’s have been pulling fueling out of the table.

Do as the man says.
 
Motzarelli said:
Thank you.

I have ridden my bike with the upmap for probably a couple of hundred Kms and the sensors connected. This sounds like I might have a problem?
If I disconnect then and ride will it sort it out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

do what arctic for sure. If youve left the sensors in AND connected, you need to follow that procedure. Theyve been leaning the bike out as youve been riding.
 
KurtP said:
post your log data of stft, ltft, show where you hit the ltft limit and show the conditions where your ecu went from closed loop to open loop. Im genuinely interested to see this. If these bikes seldom if ever use their closed loop as you say, than much of my argument is invalid. On bosch motronic, closed loop covers 50% of throttle angle and 2/3 of the rev range. I can be at 6k of 9 on my tach on the highway and still be closed loop, so it has to be adjusted. You just saw the data that it can be done with narrow bands.

ive said this multiple times before: i genuinely hope im wrong and i want you to prove me wrong. So just post the data and lets be done with it.
Click to expand...


Im still curious to hear what @ArcticWhite and @vcyclenut think about the data logs showing successful lambda shift of narrowband o2’s......
Click to expand...

@ArcticWhite and @vcyclenut

you guys said lambda shifting narrow bands was impossible, i showed with data that it was. You guys owe a comment to me and the rest of the people here on it.

@ArcticWhite

im still waiting for all this data referenced.

this conversation has to be data driven. You say im wrong and that you have the data to support what youre saying, you owe it to us to post it. I want to be proven wrong. If open loop can just work all the time then it may be a good option.

c’mon gents. Show down on your hand, please.
 
Last edited:
KurtP said:
do what arctic for sure. If youve left the sensors in AND connected, you need to follow that procedure. Theyve been leaning the bike out as youve been riding.
Click to expand...

Thanks Kurt and Arctic.
Much appreciated


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